Four winds international is who Bob said he went with, I have tried several times to locate this company via the internet, and have found them listed in upcoming (at least then)shows, but never found a net site to contact then nor a phone number. I e-mailed Bob on this but never got an answer (he stays busy from my understanding). I recall he paid like 10K U.S. for a 40 foot and a 20 foot container. He also DID NOT let the container pass through Manila, but worked it out to be routed to Mindinao. If you find the contact info for Four winds international please post it.

FYI, I have a confirmed container to be placed in my driveway in Beaverton, Oregon for three days for me to load. The cost from Portland, Oregon to Davao has been confirmed at $2000. Insurance is $100. I don't know if there are any other costs, like certification before it leaves, etc. I heard somewhere that someone paid $500 for certification. I DO have to make arrrangements in Davao, after going through customs, for the delivery of the goods to my home there. The company is, Crown International Forwarders, 1-800-631-6881 or www.crown-intl.com I have had no experience with them yet, but I liked the price. The cost of approximately $10,000 Bob Martin paid included a moving company. As I understand it, they did everything. I'm not sure about the packing, however. I hope this helps.

Yes I used an ATTORNEY, but he was was within the Immigration Office. The processing "" officer ""was himself an Attorney and handled everything including arranging for Final Representation on my behalf during the hearing. So YES you do need an Attorney..

What a good idea, Tim. Maybe you could just slip it into a cd player and let it do it's thing. How about an autoreverse cassette deck with decent base speakers? Keep us posted. It cost nothing and may drift into the public domain if not already. So it could save lives if available to many someway. Maybe it could even be played on a small radio if some public service or government station was interested in doing it and had the funds. Maybe some who snore as loud as I do, could learn to tune their snoring to the right pitch to do the job ecologically correctly.

was just wondering if anyone has flown any courier flights? I paided $450.00 roundtrip. It was from LA to Manilla. Anything to help my fellow americans in your time of ecomnomic downturn. please refer to the past posts because it will only clogg up the system or just e-mail.

I've flown courier 3X in the last year, first to Bangkok, then Manila last X-mas ($750 RT NYC, much cheper than $1,500 last minute on NW) and HK in April. If my temporary job ends Friday (and my 2nd car sells as planned on 1/5), I will again visit Phils in January. Might have enough for 2 RTs to Davao, otherwise, will stay in northern Luzon for maybe 3 weeks. No Cebu Marriott this trip Don, haha, my abode of choice when in Magellan's favorite city. Happy Holidays all,

It seems that many messages being posted have a certain amount of ""How to make a small fortune in the Philippines"" / ""Start with a large one"" syndrome about them. I have written a small piece below of my experiences in the hope that it will instill in some a more positive attitude towards the country. We own and run an apartment hotel of twenty-three units, ranging from studio suites to three bedroom town houses. Built it up from a green field site seven years ago, we have enjoyed near full occupancy from day one. A business in The Philippines legally set up and following the rules can be very lucrative for all concerned. Contrary to popular belief among foreigners the playing field here is level, as in all countries running a business needs skills in the field you are intending to compete. You must also run the business professionally from a financial and legal point of view as you would in the West. Choose a business that you know something about, or at least have very good access to information or products. Aim for the A's and B's of society they have the money to spend, setting up a Sari-Sari store in a lowly area is not going to get you too far. Positioning of the business and what you sell is as important in the Philippines as else where, do some market research. Also start small and grow big. Advice on setting up. We have a Corporation, and as stated by others it's got to be 60% Filipino and 40% foreign, (but can be now 100% foreign in certain categories). I would strongly advise not to get a partner, except your wife, as things can and do go wrong. If you don't trust your wife as a partner the best advice would be to get a divorce! A Corporation is easy to set up with the help of a good lawyer or accountant of your choosing, (don't use ANYONE else, and be very wary about ones that get recommended). Stay away from friends, family, politicians, government employees, fixer's etc who tell you they have 'friends in high places' and can get things done quickly. The benefit of a Corporation over a Single Proprietorship is that you get part of it. A Corporation also means of course that you have the responsibility of following the law. Your own house (wives in most cases) and the land it stands on can be incorporated; this is where a good lawyer or accountant can advise you on the best way to go. If your wife already owns land and you transfer it to the Corporation, you will be required to pay the necessary taxes. If you are serious about doing something here the first thing to figure out is what! It should be done as a business, not as a hobby for you or the family. I suggest the last thing to try is a bar or restaurant, these go bust very quickly if not managed on an hour to hour basis by yourself, and it also takes a lot of expertise in the F & B line. Plenty of other opportunities around though, and if done correctly and professionally can be very lucrative. Only employ the very best people you can get, and that does not mean the family, in fact my advice would be to keep them at arms length. If not they will, in a very short time want part of the company, and their vision of running it is a lot different to what yours will be. I speak from experience on this, luckily my wife and I have the same attitude now regarding employing family, we don't. You of course can still help them in other ways such as sponsoring children to go to school. Make sure you pay the school bills direct or buy the uniforms or books, don't give cash. Another way as Christmas is just around the corner is to buy them a large food hamper. We have never paid national government officials or the local city hall officers, anything in setting up or running our business. Stay away from 'fixers' both local and particularly foreign ones, they are all after one thing, money, and most of the time do not know what they are talking about. Best to do it all on your own, you then get the feel of the place, and although you need a lot of patients at times, you know what's going on. To get an insight into doing anything visit the local book store and get a book on taxation, corporate law etc plenty around on all sorts of subjects. Follow the law at all time, this is not difficult if you find out for yourself from the government departments you have to deal with. Get away from 'Bar"" or now ""Internet"" talk, most of it is just that. Again get the best people you can to work for you, contrary to popular belief Filipino's are honest and hard working, (but not necessarily productive). Pay them at least the minimum wage (Davao is now P177 a day) plus any cost of living allowance, first six months is probation, if they are no good during that time they never will be, fire them, as after six months it's a problem terminating. DOLE has a handout detailing conditions of employment. Hire a good book keeper, they do all the running around at the BIR, City hall, VAT etc, cost is about one thousand a month, depending on the size of the company. Many foreigners here in Davao own and run there own businesses ranging from agriculture, to meat processing, and from wholesale drink distribution to fishing. Contrary to popular belief people in the Philippines have money, and you can make money from them by offering good products, and service(s). Every bad report you hear regarding service or goods not available, don't look on it negatively, but as a good business opportunity. I wish you the very best of luck on doing something in the Philippines, it's a great place to live with wonderful people, and a great climate. Have fun

Hi I like your post, full of positives and sounds very good down to earth common sense. Decided to look at your website, perhaps it's time to update it, and how about a poolside picture or other hotel view to give a better perspective? Maybe I'll visit sometime in 2002. Good luck to you and yours,

I cannot recall the total costs, but starting from scratch, on a Tourist Visa to now a full Visa which I now have I most likely out laid around Peso 80,000"" Ye Gods! You got ripped off. I got mine without an attorney or ""fixer,"" and total fees were less than P5000 in 1998. I paid another $75 or so for the processing that took place at the RP consulate in LA before I came over here, and of course I paid my doctor and medical lab for their work - let's say another $150. It took me three months to get my act together in the States (mostly to do the medical stuff), and 1-1/2 days after entry, including the Customs and revenue paperwork. The visa is PERMANENT - as the name suggests. Once granted, you only have to visit Immigration once a year in the first sixty days, pay a fee (now about P300) and register, confirming your current address. Most of that P80,000 you paid went to intermediaries; the fees that Immigration charges are painted on the walls of the lobby in Intramuros.

Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776 Rather than make war on the American people and their liberties, ...Congress should be looking for ways to empower them to protect themselves when warranted. They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Thank you for your post. I totally agree with you. I would add some small marginal notes. 1.Don't start a business if you have not enough cash to invest and keep on investing. 2.Business ethics are not that common in the Philippines. As a foreigner you will need to play by the rules but be prepared that your competitors are playing fool (pay their employees less than you do, pay less taxes, have the right connections). This should be compensated by the fact that you introduce more efficiency in your business. They save on wages & taxes, you safe money by working in a more efficient way. 3. Being in the retail & wholesale of books & stationaries I am confronted with a widespread use of corruption money. At least 60% of the purchasers expect corruption money (mostly 10% you add on the invoice). As a foreigner it is very difficult to compete in this game. This system is in place since a very long time and is tacitly accepted by everybody. Then you come along and try to sell. I know, they know. But why should they trust me? Why should they change from supplier. They already get their usual % on their purchases. Should I offer more? Anybody who could give me advice on this is more than welcome. I am loosing almost all the governmental bids. I am strong in retail but very weak in wholesale. To sustain my business I need a bigger share of the wholesale market. No, it's not always funny...

All the info about courier flights can be found in the archives. Just search "courier flights", there are several postings with the names of courier agencies. You can also search the web.

after hearing all your input about the process of applying for a permanent visa, the hubby & I all of sudden feel nervous & uneasy with our January 2002 plan to start the ball rolling. That's one reason why I haven't sent in my questions Marc, cus honestly we still don't know how & where to start. Getting all this information is mind boggling we're now worried we might end up doing the wrong thing and spend way too much money. We have been considering talking to one of the ""Attorneys"" at the Immigration Department cus from some sources that is the way to do it & initially reading Steve Albert's posting, we thought we were heading towards the right direction. Now analyzing the whole process it is VERY discouraging imagining what we will have to go through. We don't even know if it is still worth the effort to pursue this now. But Don says it is worth it even after all the aggravation. Is there really going to be a so- called ""hearing"" and did any of you go through all this? Steve mentioned that he paid some amount so he wouldn't have to be bothered attending. Is there a clear path to follow without having to be fooled and forced into over-paying? Anyway, after reading your message Marc, we just have to postpone it until we get some more info. Oh, if we are lucky, maybe we might bump into anyone around here who's in Manila and maybe share some valuable and helpful information over a cup coffee or tea at Starbucks. Coffee, tea anyone?

I will pay 1500 USD (= 78,000 pesos) to get my 13A Visa. In other words a little fortune. Honestly I thought it was a total rip-off. Till I saw Marc's email. Everything is organized by my lawyer (even the visits to the doctor & Bureau of quarantine ). They even got someone from a NBI agent to take my fingerprints. So almost no hassle & no queues. It is totally my fault if I didn't got my 13A visa already. I am spending 99 % of my time in Belgium what complicates things for my lawyer. My lawyer is very reliable (he takes care of all my businesses in the Philippines). Normally his fees are acceptable. I was very surprised he asked me so much for this kind of work (immigration matters). I am sure you can find someone who can do it cheaper or maybe do the job partly yourself. If you find it an attractive price (what I can't imagine) I can give you my lawyers name and address & email on your private email address. best regards

I'm in Manila and always up for an excuse to drink Coffee. But I won't be much help in your search for information, though I will smile and listen closely.

I already thought a lot about my future rights the day I will move to the Philippines. I went trough some of the past emails and statements like: ""The family can also file charges against you and have you deported,even if you did nothing."" Quite frightning. Lately I was playing around with a ""silly"" idea. Why not aquire the Filipino Nationality? I read somewhere that once you got the 13A Visa you can apply (after 5 years) for the Filipino Nationality. Of course I don't want to loose my Belgian Nationality. But if I don't tell the Belgian authorities , how will they ever know? In the Philippines I would have the Filipino Nationality and in Belgium I would have the Belgian Nationality. Again I can't imagine this kind of information is traded between such distand countries. What do you think? Would this be workable? Or is this utopy?

In recent months there has been an increase in kidnappings in Manila and throughout The Philippines, including in popular resorts. There is also a threat from random bombings, including a reported specific threat to bomb public places in Metro Manila. We strongly advise against all travel to Southern and Western Mindanao and against all holiday and other non-essential travel to other parts of Mindanao and Palawan until further notice British nationals should remain vigilant throughout the Philippines, including heightened security awareness against the threat of kidnapping in Manila, and exercise great caution when considering travel to any coastal resorts. The Mayon volcano near Legazpi City erupted on 24 June causing thousands to be displaced; it is still active and should be avoided.

Well it is the duty of governments to warn the public but in my opinion you don't risk much as a foreigner in the Philippines. As it was posted before foreigners are not the primary targets of the kidnappers for ransom. They are mainly interested in Chinese businessmen. Of course it is not totally risk free to live in the Philippines. But what is risk free in life? (Remember WTC) It is more a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong moment... fate, suerte ? I was in Legazpi and Sorsogon during one of the eruptions of Mayon Volcano. It was much more spectacular on TV than in reality. My friends & family in Belgium saw it on television and were scared to dead. Being in Sorsogon during the first eruption I wasn't even aware of it. Of course it is not a game if you are in one of the villages near the volcano. Believe in your good star, keep a low profile and watch you steps. That is the best advice I can give. But be prepared to go when it is your time... Bahala na !

I was really disapointed when i read that article on the web bec i have set my mind to live there. And it seems when i ever do something it always goes wrong. i was engaged to filipina girl who lived in usa I live in UK but i lossed her to illness. This is why now i would like to live in her country. I just feel its my destiny for some reason God only knows why. And yep you are correct it is all fate re WTC i could be knocked off my bike tommorow, traveling is living to me anyway i hope some order comes about there in the Phil one day

I completely agree with you about the government warnings, they are always more scarier and harsher than it truely is in the PI. My wife and I have been back many times and have never had any troubles or worries. I also agree with you about Mt. Mayon, it is not as dangerous as most people would think. My wife's relatives live on the side of Mt. Mayon north of Legazpi in the towns of Tabaco and Tiwi for many generations, and never have had any problems with eruptions or lava flows ever. All we have ever gotten was a lot of very spectacular pictures from the eruptions. We also plan on retiring some day around there, we hope!? Nice to see someone mentioning more about southern Luzon, than just about Sorsogon, anyway Don has almost convinced my wife the Cebu city is the place to live, and now the talk about Davao City is getting her interest if it wasn't for the terrorist troubles on the island of Mindanao which scare her a whole lot. She sees the NPA and Abu-sharif terrorist everywhere.

You're caught in the situation of living in an American Commonwealth where only indigenous natives can own land, and the local government controls its own immigration. Which means that you can employ Filipino OCW helpers, as even some welfare families on Saipan are known to do. I'm jealous! Guam is only an 'unincorporated US Territory', but property ownership and immigration are under US laws. Due to the poor economy and 9/11, property rentals and sales here get cheaper by the day. Quite a few military retirees have moved here from the RP since the bases closed, in order to have exchange and hospital privileges. If you want to retire in the tropics, under the US flag, Guam is certainly an appealing choice. But the Filipinos here soon get Americanized, and forget how to smile.

Well, I will be arriving in Cebu early on Jan. 7th. Looking forward to seeing some of you. I don't suppose you have a weekly gathering for breakfast/lunch or something. Could something be arranged/started? That would be great. I want to check out Cebu and area, as well as parts of Bohol (before the seahorses disappear), maybe Moalboal and even Dumaguete before going over to Mindanao and Cagayan de Oro & Davao. Nothing carved in stone, just ideas. Have two months. Some of you should leave out of Canada as the fares seem more reasonable after converting from U.S. funds (you could whip up here easily Bob H.). My itinerary says I may be there 60 days ( I arrive on the 7th and leave on Mar. 7th). What is the penalty for one extra day on visas? The ticket can be extended to 3 months, but then I would have to stretch the dollar accordingly. :( Merry Christmas and a very prosperous New Year to all.

Have a great trip. I am SO jealous! I'll probably be visiting frozen Montreal while you're laying on the beach in Cebu. What are fares like from Montreal to the Philippines?

We don't have a formal group here in Cebu that has regular meetings. I have several friends I see two or three times a week for coffee at Bo's coffee house across the street from Cebu Doctor's Hospital. Often we go other places, to do some personal business or just roam around. But frankly most foreigners here, and me too, to some extent, have a ""loaner"" streak. And you have to be very selective about your friends here. Some people who come here are running from something, and you can't tell it at first. Some are looking in your pockets, though they are pretty easy to spot. They have a no lose deal for you. Some or over here for less than honorable or even legal purposes. I don't think we have any of those as posters on this list, though we may have some in our groups of lurkers, though I hope not. We have a lot of short time members unsubscribe when they find the tone of the list is not what they are looking for. That is good for them and good for us. I welcome all members to call me at my home, 255 5047 or 253 9903. We can meet and hopefully I can inroduce you to some like minded people. There are some like me who welcome visitors, like to show them around and teach them the ropes so they will enjoy themselves more and the Filipinos will enjoy and appreciate them more in return. I hope we can loosely formalize some kind of meeting as they have done in other areas. I don't means something with membership cards, just a location big enough to hold a dozen or so compatable foreigners, their wives and children if that is how folks want to do it. As the list goes, that becomes more possible, and it is growing very fast. There is already some places foreigners hang out in Manila and other places. One caution, obvious that you already know, but I just mention so you will keep it in mind. It is normal to seek out people of one's own culture with whom you are comfortable. But if you do it exclusively, to the point of forming very few relationships with Filipinos, you will not have much of an opportunity to learn much about the culture or the people, much different than ours than it and they appear on the surface. I look forward to hearing from you, Don. Have a wonderful trip. And thank you for your post.

I certainly can't speak for all Filipinos, but I have been associated with the Filipino Community Center in Seattle for a number of years and have come to know many Filipino transplants who seem to be happy and successful. If there is any unhappiness, and I'm sure there is somewhere, it doesn't seem to show in this community. We have over 15,000 members. Just last Saturday I attended the Lasamenos Christmas Celebration at the Filipino Community Center of Seattle. Aside from it being a fund raising event, we had a terrific dinner (American), live band, raffles and lots of dancing. We opened the party by first singing the Star Spangled Banner, then the Philippine National Anthem. Nearly all of them seem to be very happy and well adjusted. It would be hard to say that none of them smile after having attended the party Saturday night

What I am going to say now is very controversial. But I say it anyway and present it as the way I feel, not imposing it on others or implying it is anything other than my feelings from my experience both here and in the States. So many foreigner truly feel they are doing a Filipino a favor by taking them to the ""promise land"" of the US. And the Filipinos most often agree. But when they get there I have seen them become more ""American"" than Americans. And I have seen them reject outright and even become ashamed of their rich and beautiful culture of love and family respect, interdependence and happiness, for dazzling but fleeting sparkle of US materialism. I have seen them become absolutely miserable human beings, marginal people, neither fish nor fowl, discriminated against because not being ""American."" not being WASP like me, brown skinned, short and having an accent. If they do hang on to there culture they are usually terribly homesick. I have never seen anyone more homesick than a homesick Filipino, a debilitating close to fatal ailment went it is experienced to the extent that many Filipinos suffer it. All of the ""White Knights"" coming to the rescue of the poor Filipino/as, should be aware that it is not all good that they do when uprooting these gentle people for the Filipino's materialistic betterment. Everything, especially change, comes at a price. Sometimes that price is just too high. As you point out, Tom, if they adapt well, accept the ""perfect"" culture of the States, they lose their most valuable possession: their smile, something vital to ones very survival, mental health and happiness. Something more valuable than all the streets paved with gold in the States and other so called ""developed"" countries. This is my take, from my experience. I do hope I am dead wrong and that what I see is only an aberration as viewed by a empathetically limited fool, lacking in perception to the point of blindness to true reality. But I don't think so.

maybe you can shovel my driveway while I am away. Hah! Seriously , what would you be doing here in the winter? Are you into skiing? Snorkeling is so much better! It's $1,300 Can (return) to Cebu, via Manilla, which is about $800 U.S.. Earlier this year it was $1,080 (Can.) with North West to Manilla. I'm sorry I didn't get down to visit you. Maybe in the spring. What timing. One of my orchids is going to flower while I am in the Philippines. All the best to everyone.

You have so much insight into most of these matters, but as for me, I don't see things as extreme as your examples here. I see these as the exception, not the rule. I agree with you on materialism. It's rampant in our society, and it's quite common for those who are poor to be overwhelmed by it as well. I DO believe that most Filipinos adjust fairly well to American society for the most part, probably better than most Americans adjust to Philippine society. Most on this list, especially you, are prime exceptions to this rule. I am NOT disagreeing with you Don, I am just aware of your special love for the Filipino people, and I always take that into consideration. I hope you know that you are loved and respected very much.

I understand you can even use your GI Bill of rights to buy a house there. What medical facilities are available for veterans now. Is there only a clinic or a full hospital? What is the median cost of a house? Is there public transportation. I understand the unemployment rate is 15 percent now and it used to be around three. What I am going to say now is very controversial. But I say it anyway and present it as the way I feel, not imposing it on others or implying it is anything other than my feelings from my experience both here and in the States. So many foreigner truly feel they are doing a Filipino a favor by taking them to the ""promise land"" of the US. And the Filipinos most often agree. But when they get there I have seen them become more ""American"" than Americans. And I have seen them reject outright and even become ashamed of their rich and beautiful culture of love and family respect, interdependence and happiness, for dazzling but fleeting sparkle of US materialism. I have seen them become absolutely miserable human beings, marginal people, neither fish nor fowl, discriminated against because not being ""American."" not being WASP like me, brown skinned, short and having an accent. If they do hang on to there culture they are usually terribly homesick. I have never seen anyone more homesick than a homesick Filipino, a debilitating close to fatal ailment went it is experienced to the extent that many Filipinos suffer it. All of the ""White Knights"" coming to the rescue of the poor Filipino/as, should be aware that it is not all good that they do when uprooting these gentle people for the Filipino's materialistic betterment. Everything, especially change, comes at a price. Sometimes that price is just too high. As you point out, Tom, if they adapt well, accept the ""perfect"" culture of the States, they lose their most valuable possession: their smile, something vital to ones very survival, mental health and happiness. Something more valuable than all the streets paved with gold in the States and other so called ""developed"" countries. This is my take, from my experience. I do hope I am dead wrong and that what I see is only an aberration as viewed by a empathetically limited fool, lacking in perception to the point of blindness to true reality. But I don't think so.

Thanks for the gracious reply. You are absolutely right. We shouldn't seek out only ""our own"" as we would be missing out on a great deal. However, if we did ""get acquainted"" with our own we could discuss the various nuances that we would run into in this new exciting culture called the Philippines, which I really want to explore. That would be the best part of having a regular get together. Getting to meet one person may not work, but meeting a few there may be some that could ""click"". Everyone has their own program to work out. I can be a loaner. After awhile we may all prefer to be loaners, or we could meet a future ""best friend"" at any time. That's what makes the world go round and an exciting place to be in. What a mess we would be in if we all thought alike. I will surely call you when I get there and look forward to sharing a coffee with you (not that I'm not open to other things). Will have to look into the location of Bo's (and Cebu Doctor's Hospital). I'm still interested in ballroom dance places, even though I am a rookie.

I certainly can't speak for all Filipinos, but I have been associated with the Filipino Community Center in Seattle for a number of years and have come to know many Filipino transplants who seem to be happy and successful. If there is any unhappiness, and I'm sure there is somewhere, it doesn't seem to show in this community. We have over 15,000 members. Just last Saturday I attended the Lasamenos Christmas Celebration at the Filipino Community Center of Seattle. Aside from it being a fund raising event, we had a terrific dinner (American), live band, raffles and lots of dancing. We opened the party by first singing the Star Spangled Banner, then the Philippine National Anthem. Nearly all of them seem to be very happy and well adjusted. It would be hard to say that none of them smile after having attended the party Saturday night :) You are certainly correct Ron. Where there are large concentrations of Filipino, few places because so many are spread out at hospitals and other medical facilities, people do not lose their cultural identity. Daily City is like living in the Philippines, but cold. Tom has a point about Guam. I hear they don't smile there. They are disliked by the locals too, I understand because they work hard. I lived in San Francisco and worked with many in non Filipino environments. When at work they were miserable, passed over for jobs just because of a slight accent. But when the went home to Daily City, it was like a trip to Manila with fog. Maybe when you are at a party were they are together eating you don't see some of the things that you see in other environments. I have seen a lot of pain from my own wife in freezing NYC where she had not one Filipina friend. I have seen Filipinas marry guys in the States and go into depressive states. The guy takes them from here where they have never been alone except maybe for a trip to a comfort room and leave the all day long in an apartment with nothing but the TV. I wish Robert Warren would post about his wife when they were in El Paso. Ken Paschall who called me yesterday and who's wife is on this list called me and said for sure they would be back in a year. I said I bet you are going to be happy. He said, ""Yes, but not has happy as my wife. She is miserable here after four years and wants to get back here. They live in Denver, a good life, no financial problems, a wonderful child. Now the child, sill young will be able to grow up in this culture. (If I misquote you or Ken Mrs. Paschall, please correct me.) I appreciate your point. But a community center in Seattle at a Christmas party is not where to make a global or even general assessment, I feel, especially when drinking is involved. When Filipinos get together were ever they are, even in Africa, when I was there and my wife was the ""ate"" Filipina' all the nurses, United Nation's Volunteers, other Filipino men and women there, including nuns, focused on and asked for advice and even herbal cures. But the Filipino's time together there was very was limited. And they missed food, their culture, but really missed their brother, sisters and parents. As we all know, this is a family centered society. They can adjust to moving in circles outside the family, particularly with other Filipino. But family is first and foremost in every true Filipinos mind, I believe, taking my cure from Fr. Leonardo Mercado who's free book is on www.livinginthephilipines.com and I wish all who were serious about the Filipinos and the Philippines would read. It is a short a pleasant trip into the ""Mind of the Filipino,"" by a unique and articulate Filipino genius. I have mentioned before the joy a Filipino feels when he meets a Filipino in another country. And how that becomes exaggerated when they are from the same province. And how it escalates even greater if they are from the same town. And if they know one another from the Philippines there is pandemonium. When one see a family member in another country their emotions go totally out of control to the point of temporarily insanity from intense joy and love. Country is country. Family rules. When you go off to Seattle to be a nurse you can't take Tatay or Nay, them most important people in the world. They are left behind, but are ever present in the Filipinos heart that aches for their touch and comfort. When you are a psychologist dealing with people with problems, professionally trained in cross cultural interaction, and attuned to people like Filipinos who don't like to complain, you learn to see thing others don't, maybe. I don't know. As I said, that is as I see it. I know others see it differently. But I am not convinced there perception is any more valid than mine. Thank you for your post Ron. As you know, you are someone who I respect. And you are someone who I know I can disagree with seriously and even with what may appear to be more than a tinge or arrogance, and still retain that respect and be respected too.

There is a chance that we maybe moving to Manila with my husbands work in the next year or so. If there is any other members in this group who are living in the Philippines with children I would love to hear from you

I tend to agree with Don's perception. The secret misery that exists within many Filipina's souls after being yanked out of their home environment is a real problem for them. Together with my first Wife (from Iligan) I lived in various different countries including England, the US, Brazil and Spain. It took me a long time to discover that she too suffered this kind of emptiness. She would *never* complain or talk about it. This was something I had to work out for myself and was the reason we eventually went back to living in the Philippines. I still have a vivid memory the young Filipina wife of an Irish man living in London who tragically ended her life by jumping from the 10th floor window of their apartment . . . . Now I'm married to Arlene who has yet to visit some other countries I want her to see. We have discussed this very topic and she agrees it's best to keep our home in the RP. For as long as we can live safely and our children can get a good education then I have no plans to live in any other country except the Philippines. Visit for holidays, yes, but not to stay.

There are lots of different ways that dual citizenship might or might not be recognized. When obtaining US citizenship, one is supposed to renounce allegiance to country of origin, but lots of US citizens are still considered citizens of their countries of origin. Just keeping a passport from the original country would allow someone to continue enjoying the benefits of both nationalities.