You have so much insight into most of these matters, but as for me, I don't see things as extreme as your examples here. I see these as the exception, not the rule. I agree with you on materialism. It's rampant in our society, and it's quite common for those who are poor to be overwhelmed by it as well. I DO believe that most Filipinos adjust fairly well to American society for the most part, probably better than most Americans adjust to Philippine society. Most on this list, especially you, are prime exceptions to this rule. I am NOT disagreeing with you Don, I am just aware of your special love for the Filipino people, and I always take that into consideration. I hope you know that you are loved and respected very much. Niles I understand you can even use your GI Bill of rights to buy a house there. What medical facilities are available for veterans now. Is there only a clinic or a full hospital? What is the median cost of a house? Is there public transportation. I understand the unemployment rate is 15 percent now and it used to be around three. What I am going to say now is very controversial. But I say it anyway and present it as the way I feel, not imposing it on others or implying it is anything other than my feelings from my experience both here and in the States. So many foreigner truly feel they are doing a Filipino a favor by taking them to the ""promise land"" of the US. And the Filipinos most often agree. But when they get there I have seen them become more ""American"" than Americans. And I have seen them reject outright and even become ashamed of their rich and beautiful culture of love and family respect, interdependence and happiness, for dazzling but fleeting sparkle of US materialism. I have seen them become absolutely miserable human beings, marginal people, neither fish nor fowl, discriminated against because not being ""American."" not being WASP like me, brown skinned, short and having an accent. If they do hang on to there culture they are usually terribly homesick. I have never seen anyone more homesick than a homesick Filipino, a debilitating close to fatal ailment went it is experienced to the extent that many Filipinos suffer it. All of the ""White Knights"" coming to the rescue of the poor Filipino/as, should be aware that it is not all good that they do when uprooting these gentle people for the Filipino's materialistic betterment. Everything, especially change, comes at a price. Sometimes that price is just too high. As you point out, Tom, if they adapt well, accept the ""perfect"" culture of the States, they lose their most valuable possession: their smile, something vital to ones very survival, mental health and happiness. Something more valuable than all the streets paved with gold in the States and other so called ""developed"" countries. This is my take, from my experience. I do hope I am dead wrong and that what I see is only an aberration as viewed by a empathetically limited fool, lacking in perception to the point of blindness to true reality. But I don't think so.

hanks for the gracious reply. You are absolutely right. We shouldn't seek out only ""our own"" as we would be missing out on a great deal. However, if we did ""get acquainted"" with our own we could discuss the various nuances that we would run into in this new exciting culture called the Philippines, which I really want to explore. That would be the best part of having a regular get together. Getting to meet one person may not work, but meeting a few there may be some that could ""click"". Everyone has their own program to work out. I can be a loaner. After awhile we may all prefer to be loaners, or we could meet a future ""best friend"" at any time. That's what makes the world go round and an exciting place to be in. What a mess we would be in if we all thought alike. I will surely call you when I get there and look forward to sharing a coffee with you (not that I'm not open to other things). Will have to look into the location of Bo's (and Cebu Doctor's Hospital). I'm still interested in ballroom dance places, even though I am a rookie.

I certainly can't speak for all Filipinos, but I have been associated with the Filipino Community Center in Seattle for a number of years and have come to know many Filipino transplants who seem to be happy and successful. If there is any unhappiness, and I'm sure there is somewhere, it doesn't seem to show in this community. We have over 15,000 members. Just last Saturday I attended the Lasamenos Christmas Celebration at the Filipino Community Center of Seattle. Aside from it being a fund raising event, we had a terrific dinner (American), live band, raffles and lots of dancing. We opened the party by first singing the Star Spangled Banner, then the Philippine National Anthem. Nearly all of them seem to be very happy and well adjusted. It would be hard to say that none of them smile after having attended the party Saturday night :) You are certainly correct Ron. Where there are large concentrations of Filipino, few places because so many are spread out at hospitals and other medical facilites, people do not lose their cultural identity. Daily City is like living in the Philippines, but cold. Tom has a point about Guam. I hear they don't smile there. They are disliked by the locals too, I understand because they work hard. I lived in San Francisco and worked with many in non Filipino enviorments. When at work they were miserable, passed over for jobs just because of a slight accent. But when the went home to Daily City, it was like a trip to Manila with fog. Maybe when you are at a party were they are together eating you don't see some of the things that you see in other enviorments. I have seen a lot of pain from my own wife in freezing NYC where she had not one Filipina friend. I have seen Filipinas marry guys in the States and go into depressive states. The guy takes them from here where they have never been alone execept maybe for a trip to a comfort room and leave the all day long in an apartment with nothing but the TV. I wish Robert Warren would post about his wife when they were in El Paso. Ken Paschall who called me yesterday and who's wife is on this list called me and said for srue they would be back in a year. I said I bet you are going to be happy. He said, ""Yes, butg not has happy as my wife. She is miserable here after four years and wants to get back ther. They live in Denver, a good life, no financial problems, a wonderful child. Now the child, sill young will be able to grow up in this culture. I appreciate your point. But a community center in Seattle is not where to make the final assessment, I feel. When Filipinos get toghether were ever they are, even in Africa, when I was there and my wife was the ""key"" Filipina' all the nurses, United Nation's Volunteers focused on and asked for advice and even herbal cures. But their time together was limited. And they missed food, their culture, but really missed their brother, sisters and parents. As we all know, this is a family centered society. They can adjust to moving in cirlces outside the family, particularly with other Filipino. But family is first and formost in every true Filipinos mind, I believe, taking my cure from Fr. Leonardo Mercado who's free book is on www.livinginthephilipines.com and I wish all who were serious about the Filippinos and the Philipines would read. It is a short a pleasant trip into the ""Mind of the Filipino,"" by a unique and articulate Filipino genius. When you are a psychologist dealing with people with problems, professionally trained in cross cultural interaction, and atuned to people like Filipinos who don't like to complain, you learn to see thing others don't, mabe. I don't know. As I said, that is as I see it. I know others see it diffferently. But I am not convinced there perception is any more valid than mine. Thank you for your post Ron. You are someone who I respect, and who I know I can disagree with seriously and still retain that respect.

I tend to agree with Don's perception. The secret misery that exists within many Filipina's souls after being yanked out of their home environment is a real problem for them. Together with my first Wife (from Iligan) I lived in various different countries including England, the US, Brazil and Spain. It took me a long time to discover that she too suffered this kind of emptiness. She would *never* complain or talk about it. This was something I had to work out for myself and was the reason we eventually went back to living in the Philippines. I still have a vivid memory the young Filipina wife of an Irish man living in London who tragically ended her life by jumping from the 10th floor window of their apartment . . . . Now I'm married to Arlene who has yet to visit some other countries I want her to see. We have discussed this very topic and she agrees it's best to keep our home in the RP. For as long as we can live safely and our children can get a good education then I have no plans to live in any other country except the Philippines. Visit for holidays, yes, but not to stay.

I'd like to add a couple of observations to this fascinating topic: I agree that there's nothing more heart-tugging than a homesick Filipino. How many suffer badly? It's hard to tell, partly because Filipinos are good at hiding their inner emotions. My wife has told me about her late father's visit to Washington, D.C., in the 1960s on a government assignment. He couldn't stand the weather or the culture and practically fled back to the RP. Don mentioned Daly City, south of San Francisco, about the closest thing in the U.S. to a ""Filipinotown."" When my family vacationed in San Francisco last year, we spent some time with my wife's relatives in Daly City. I remember taking Joy to a mall there where many of the merchants and most of the customers are Filipino. I thought Joy would be in heaven. Instead, people seemed like strangers to her. Few smiles. More like an American crowd. After an hour, Joy was ready to leave (she usually spends all day at a mall :) ). These are isolated snapshots, not necessarily indicative of larger truths. I think the majority of Filipinos adapt pretty well to U.S. culture and rhythms. Some, in fact, adapt TOO well. But some Filipinos are plainly miserable in the role of transplant, and I suspect more than a few others are skillfully hiding their misery.

This has been a previous topic; you can get some more ideas by checking the archives. We are not typical, as we have maintained much of our middle class style of living and are very new to living in the Philippines. Also we are in Makati, which is its own planet. I swear I saw Elvis last week, wearin' shades and Barong. Though I am sure as time goes on we will change to better fit the environment. I have a maid and a driver. They both work for me rather than for my husband who is always at work and drives himself. I am having a difficult time with my management techniques. Though I am learning to be more assertive with my requests. I have never been an employer before; everyone should be required to take a personnel management course before hiring staff. We pay a wage that is high by Filipino standard. Though it is about average compared to wages paid by the people who work with my husband. I pay my all-round maid P7000 + SSS and health. I provide her with two uniforms. This is all-inclusive and she does not receive any other allowances. She does take her meals at the house. We paid her 50% of her Salary for 13th month. We have only employed her for two months, I don't believe that under those circumstances I was required to pay 13th month. She lives out by her choice (she is married with a child) though will come and work evenings or stay the night when asked. She worked for the American family who lived in our house previous to us, she knows our routine and is incredibly self motivated. I look upon her as if she has been in continuous employment by the house even though the inhabitants have changed. So I started her at the wage the previous family was paying her. She is a joy to have around the house. I pay my driver P6500 + SSS and health. He lives in M-F and spends weekends away. He works Saturday and evenings upon request. He is not working out so well and I am probably going to let him go after the holidays. I am always having to chase him down because he is chatting with his pals. I probably do not have enough driving to keep him busy but I do drive my youngest child to and from school each day. Being able to avoid the parking crunch is worth every penny. He is doing a lot of sitting around in the afternoons. I am not familiar with what is paid for a live-in driver or maid. Though I believe that it is a little less because you are offering them the equivalent of room and board. The website www.Passport2manila.com has a very comprehensive section on domestic help. It offers advice on everything from negotiating wages (does not give amounts) to management techniques.

This has been a previous topic; you can get some more ideas by checking the archives. We are not typical, as we have maintained much of our middle class style of living and are very new to living in the Philippines. Also we are in Makati, which is its own planet. I swear I saw Elvis last week, wearin' shades and Barong. Though I am sure as time goes on we will change to better fit the environment. I have a maid and a driver. They both work for me rather than for my husband who is always at work and drives himself. I am having a difficult time with my management techniques. Though I am learning to be more assertive with my requests. I have never been an employer before; everyone should be required to take a personnel management course before hiring staff. We pay a wage that is high by Filipino standard. Though it is about average compared to wages paid by the people who work with my husband. I pay my all-round maid P7000 + SSS and health. I provide her with two uniforms. This is all-inclusive and she does not receive any other allowances. She does take her meals at the house. We paid her 50% of her Salary for 13th month. We have only employed her for two months, I don't believe that under those circumstances I was required to pay 13th month. She lives out by her choice (she is married with a child) though will come and work evenings or stay the night when asked. She worked for the American family who lived in our house previous to us, she knows our routine and is incredibly self motivated. I look upon her as if she has been in continuous employment by the house even though the inhabitants have changed. So I started her at the wage the previous family was paying her. She is a joy to have around the house. I pay my driver P6500 + SSS and health. He lives in M-F and spends weekends away. He works Saturday and evenings upon request. He is not working out so well and I am probably going to let him go after the holidays. I am always having to chase him down because he is chatting with his pals. I probably do not have enough driving to keep him busy but I do drive my youngest child to and from school each day. Being able to avoid the parking crunch is worth every penny. He is doing a lot of sitting around in the afternoons. I am not familiar with what is paid for a live-in driver or maid. Though I believe that it is a little less because you are offering them the equivalent of room and board. The website www.Passport2manila.com has a very comprehensive section on domestic help. It offers advice on everything from negotiating wages (does not give amounts) to management techniques.

Thank you for sharing this story with me (us). Sounds more like a fairy tale than a story... I suppose my ""rational"" mind will have problems with that kind of situations. I am aware I am badly prepared to face this type of living conditions. My interaction with personnel & staff are more on a professional level and in an ""urban"" context. Most of my employees are young educated people who know what they want. I even get regular demands for salary increases and cuts in their working time. I always try to stay in tune with the ""local"" wages. I am paying a bit more than the average wages. I can imagine that uneducated girls from the province will do everything to get out of misery. As my situation is fully different from yours I will try to do it differently. (Maybe I am dreaming and the harsh reality in Manila will wake me up !) I think I will try to pay my maid and / or driver a very good salary but at the same time try to find a well educated professional (or eager to become one). Karinka told her driver is sitting around with his barkadas. If I hire a driver I will ask him to be at the same time my secretary. For this I am prepared to give him a good salary and extra training (computer training, English lessons if necessary, etc.) I would definitely prefer a young professional which I will consider as an assistant (or right hand man) than simply a driver. Of course he should agree to drive me around in Manila but at the same time write a letter for me. Fix things in the house. Take up responsibilities when I am away. Help me to find my way in the ""jungle"" of Manila. Yes, definitely more an assistant than a driver. Same for a maid. I don't like to tell people to do this or that. She should be able to see the work. To ""organize"" the household. If I don't have milk in the fridge she should be able to buy new one. Not wait till I discover there is no milk anymore and that I need to tell her to buy a new bottle. I am aware it will not be easy to achieve this kind of thing but I am sure it is possible. I am eager to help people in need. But I don't want to mix charity with my staff. They will get a good salary and in exchange I expect a professional service. And that doesn't mean I don't want to interact with them in a nice and friendly way. My assistant (driver) can be a friend. I am prepared to listen to his problems. Help his family. But I don't want to make a system out of it. Don , I hope you understand me rightly. I understand your situation and the way you life. It is not better or worse than mine. It is another way to do it, another approach to another situation. I really want to stress that I respect completely your way of life. (Who I am to criticize ?) From your story you seems to be a very nice man and your maids can be lucky they can attend school.. Thank you once again for organizing this discussion group.

Karinka told her driver is sitting around with his barkadas. If I hire a driver I will ask him to be at the same time my secretary. For this I am prepared to give him a good salary and extra training (computer training, English lessons if necessary, etc.) I really don't know how to explain this, Sidney. But a drive is a driver. Part of the perks are sitting around with barkadas. It may be the most important thing in the man's life, his friends and his time with them. Filipino men until recently held hands, even policemen. I guess I should not say recently. I am talking about in the first part of the 80's. It was not so true in Manila then but was common in the province. Where I was in the province above Quezon city, men danced together at dances. These were not gay men. These men had sexual desires only for women. By the 90's I started to see signs, ""No Man to Man Dancing."" The uptight Americans got to them, I guess and made something completely innocent, forbidden and maybe lewd. Sorry for another digression. A driver is a driver. That is what he does. If god wanted him to be something other than a driver he would be. He will wash your car, change your oil, manage the mechanic. Putting him in an improvement program may seem to be belittling his profession. I hope some other will comment on this. It is a very interesting phenomenon, this fatalism and relationships with employees. And it is very complex. I know Ron M. will tell you, and I am sure he is right, if you pay a ""good salary"" more than minimum market you can be considered stupid. Some will take advantage of you, or try. He has written about this before and enlightened many including bring to mind thoughts I had not previously considered. I hope I don't misquote Ron or skew his intent. Sometimes like everyone else, I hear what I want to hear. Bob Martin still recovering from his stroke had some very interesting thoughts on this too. I pray he is healing fast for himself, his family and his friends. I would definitely prefer a young professional which I will consider as an assistant (or right hand man) than simply a driver. Of course he should agree to drive me around in Manila but at the same time write a letter for me. Fix things in the house. Take up responsibilities when I am away. Help me to find my way in the ""jungle"" of Manila. Yes, definitely more an assistant than a driver. Again, there may be some problems here. I so often hear from foreigners, ""I want a maid who can clean, cook, do my errands, answer the phone, be my ""Girl Friday."" It never seems to work out that way. They find a niche they are comfortable with and that suits you and the other thins fall by the wayside and are only done if you hire another employee, in my experience. Again, I certainly would like to hear the experience of others, especially those who live here full time, maybe few, buy more than we know. Same for a maid. I don't like to tell people to do this or that. She should be able to see the work. To ""organize"" the household. If I don't have milk in the fridge she should be able to buy new one. Not wait till I discover there is no milk anymore and that I need to tell her to buy a new bottle. I am aware it will not be easy to achieve this kind of thing but I am sure it is possible. It is hard, Sidney. But with patience and understanding I feel sure you can pull it off. I am eager to help people in need. But I don't want to mix charity with my staff. Good. Ron says, and I agree, that doesn't work. But you are the only person they have. They depend on you. And they often don't know how to manage money. So many give it away to their relatives. It is hard to be hard sometimes. But if you are not, problems will increase. They will get a good salary and in exchange I expect a professional service. And that doesn't mean I don't want to interact with them in a nice and friendly way. My assistant (driver) can be a friend. I am prepared to listen to his problems. Help his family. Friendship here means lifetime unconditional commitment. Examine this thought before acting on it I believe may be good advice. But I don't want to make a system out of it. Don , I hope you understand me rightly. I understand your situation and the way you life. It is not better or worse than mine. It is another way to do it, another approach to another situation. I really want to stress that I respect completely your way of life. (Who I am to criticize ?) From your story you seems to be a very nice man and your maids can be lucky they can attend school.. I am at the time of my life when I want to do what I can for others and to make myself happy, not too hard to do. I am not sure I am going to send this girl to school. She misrepresented her situation to me. She knew she would have no time to help me. But she didn't advise me. I may, and I may not. There is much more to this than I care to write an even more than you would care to hear, if you are still getting your mail.

I have the feeling (in fact I am quite sure) you are right and I am wrong. But if it is hard to change the ""psyche"" of a Filipino it is also hard to change the ""stubbornness"" of a Belgian. I will keep you posted on my drivers history and if I succeeded with the plans I had with him. In fact my chosen ""driver"" is not a professional driver. My wife is from Bikol. He is a relative from my wife. In Belgium I wouldn't call him a relative but obviously this is another story in the Philippines. Anyway I don't feel he is too close to the family that I can't give him orders or that I will be in trouble if I need to fire him. He will graduate as a ""policeman"" in March 2002. I sponsored his scholarship in a local police academy of Sorsogon. We had a deal. I was paying his scholarship and he had to work a few hours a week in my bookstore (full time during his vacations). (Again I don't like charity.) I helped him but he needed to work for it. I never talked with him about hiring him as a driver. He was quite enthusiast about being a cop. Only last summer I told him I would like to hire him as my '""bodyguard, driver and assistant"". As his English is not sufficient I told him he would need to learn more English. I found him a local English teacher in Sorsogon. He now get extra tuition on ""communication skills"" (= speaking and understanding) a few hours a week. I also told him he will need to learn the basics of computers (Windows, Word, Excel and email). During Christmas I will need to tell him his salary. That is why I asked advice on this. I will offer him 6,000 pesos + 13th month + SSS + food and lodging. Making clear I don't want a driver but a personal assistant. Clear rules about what I expect from him. I am sending him in April to Manila were he will take care of my house till July 2002 when I will move to the Philippines. >From April till July, he will need to learn the city of Manila. Get accustomed to the ""traffic situation"" of Manila and start to start learning the basics of computer work. That is my plan so far. I know the guy. He is serious and intelligent, not too familiar and polite. On the other hand I am betting hard on only one candidate. Maybe he is good in Sorsogon and will turn out a disaster in Manila. Maybe he will not like his job. Maybe he will not adapt to Manila life. I don't know. Bahala na! On the other hand I give him the chance of his life. It is up to him to take up the opportunities that I will give him.

I can't resist commenting about my lovely wife's first year in the States. You are so right, of course, about being so hard to adjust. It would be for anyone, especially being 7,000 miles form home and not knowing any other Filipinos, nor having any relatives here, which was the case for my wife. I remember the first time she called home. I was sitting next to her trying to console her as she was trying to talk on the phone, crying her eyes out and wringing my hand so hard it hurt me hands. How can one not understand or sympathize with the Filipinos, who are so willing to sacrifice for their families. It doesn't seem right, but it's the way it is for so many. She actually adapted to the weather quickly. We woke up one morning to snow here in the Portland area her first year in Oregon. She ran outside and played gleefully in the snow, enjoying her first snow experience. It hasn't all been easy for her, however. After my wife's father passed away at age 60, and she became a citizen, we were able to bring her Mother here to live with us, but after two years and nine months, her Mother passed away at our home of a ruptured aorta at age 61. Last year, her Aunt, who was her second Mother, died of a heart attack at age 59. My wife has been working ever since one month after arriving in this country. We have helped the family as much as possible to the tune of over $100,000 in the past twelve years, but there is not much progress. Right now we are supporting two of her nieces attending nursing school. I think they are hoping to take over helping the family when they graduate and are able to go to America. Etc., Etc. I can't help but hold the highest regard for the Filipino people, because they are willing to do what is necessary in order to survive, and in many cases, have a better life because of the help of those who are able to go abroad to earn dollars, etc. Like I told my Filfam, 'You are rich in so many ways'. I realize that this is nothing new here, and that you all know this, but I can't help but continue to acknowledge these wonderful people and the love they have for family. FYI, I am a friendly guy, but sort of a loner also. I told my wife when I married her that it was her I was marrying, not her family, but I have since adopted them as my own, since I never had a family outside my immediate one. And I only had a brother that I couldn't get along with, so now you know ' the rest of the story'. I hope I didn't bore you all, but I just thought I had to give the Filipino their due, especially my wonderful wife, Normalita Josephine Alicias Thornton, (Norjo) Merry Christmas and Blessings to you all,

Thanks for your story. though you and I have approached the RP from different angles and have different interests, I can identify with nearly everything you have said. I think you have placed your finger on the pulse of life in the RP. Myself, I'm still learning every day I spend in the RP. I too am 65 and have been retired since 1995. It was my choice to share the time between the RP and my life-long home in Seattle. Before I retired I was only able to spend my vacation times in the RP (which happened to be 4 weeks) and since I've been spending from 2 to 6 months a year. Necessarily the hired help I've had have been temporary. For the short time I spent in Cebu City a few years ago, I tried an agency and had a sour experience, so returned to my usual practice of hiring on my own. As you have said, there are a lot of folks eager to work and applicants have never been in short supply. Some girls would happily work for nothing but room and board. It may seem callous or opportunistic to some that we pay such a seeming low salary, but I do it for good reasons. The rate for household help varies from next to nothing to about P1,600-P2,000. Also standard among Filipinos are the perks which include meals, SSS, medical and bonuses. If you are hiring a relative you aren't expected to pay them anything more than a small allowance plus all of their normal living expense but if your housekeeper has been on the job for a long time and has substantial responsibilities they should get paid accordingly. I've paid as low as P800 to the daughter of a lady who was doing my laundry, and as high as P1,600 to a woman who I entrusted with money to do grocery shopping. If she was going to be with me longer I would have raised her salary over time. I understand that these salaries seem low and perhaps even criminal. To think that you'd pay some poor sole only $30 a month when you're getting a hundred times that on a pension or investments! It's my firm belief that by paying more you would also be contributing to that poor sole's change of status in her family and community which is more important than anything else in a Filipino's life. That change would not be a good one because when the money stopped, and it surely would one day, that poor sole would be left without family or community. Don has described his entry into the scholarship business! I think he has taken steps of assimilating into Filipino life that he may not yet realize. A Filipino family and their community share resources :) Most of us who enter Filipino society at some level find a strange unfamiliar landscape. The economy of the RP is so dismal for most. Money is not the answer. The old hackneyed cliché, ""Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and you feed him for the rest of his life..."" is absolutely true, IMHO. The best way I know to do this is through education. That means scholarships. Don has found the way surreptitiously through the employment of a helper. I believe that this is the most effective way to use our resources to help.

When my wife applied her Belgian citizenship 15 years ago I asked the woman if she is allowed to keep her Filipino nationality. She answered me it depends on the Philippine law. If the Philippines allowed her to keep her nationality it was no problem. She also never had to renounce her Filipino citizenship. Might be the law changed now. I don't now. Don't count on hiding dual citizenship. My wife was able to renew her filipino passport until this year but now they asked her ID first (the orange one). Since she has a belgian ID her passport was history. They are computerizing everything since this year. The Belgian and the Filipino government have also a tax agreement. So be careful about your income in the Philippines. They are exchanging information.

I did some research.BELGIAN LAW AND DUAL CITIZENSHIP: THE BASICS BELGIAN LAW AND DUAL CITIZENSHIP: THE BASICS Contrary to what many Belgians think, the Belgian law regarding citizenship does not prohibit dual nationality. A Belgian may hold and keep a second and even a third nationality, besides his/her own. This rule applies in all cases when the other nationality is not specifically requested, but is acquired through birth, marriage or an involuntary act. Only when a Belgian citizen obtains a second citizenship through a voluntary act of his/her own will, does he/she lose Belgian citizenship. A request made to U.S. authorities to acquire American citizenship is, of course, considered an act of will. Children of minor age (under eighteen) would follow their parents in acquiring American nationality and, in such a case, would also follow their parents in losing Belgian citizenship. You can lose your Belgian citizenship without knowing Belgian law foresees, in general terms, that a person who ""does not need"" Belgian citizenship automatically loses it if he/she does not take the appropriate steps with Belgian authorities to retain it. This rule is part of a European effort to prevent the unnecessary multiplication of citizens holding dual nationality. How does the law distinguish between those ""needing "" or ""not needing"" Belgian citizenship? The law presumes you ""do not need Belgian citizenship"" anymore when you were born abroad after 1967, you have acquired a second nationality and have been residing abroad for at least the past ten years. In such cases, you in fact became a long-term resident or citizen of another country. Belgian law considers that you might not have any particular interest in Belgium anymore, and therefore you lose Belgian citizenship. You can always show that you remain interested in holding Belgian citizenship. The way to do that is to sign a declaration, every ten years, in the Embassy or in the Consulate General in the area where you live. This declaration has as the immediate effect that you remain a Belgian citizen for a new period of ten years. For more details regarding the conditions and procedures, please contact the Consular Office at the Embassy or the Consulate General in whose jurisdiction you reside.

Well your wife could apply for a Filipino passport in the Philippines. They will never ask if she holds another passport. She just lost her last Filipino passport and applies for a new one. If she don't tell she is a Belgian, how the hell can they know? (Of course she can't ask it in Belgium at the Filipine Embassy.) I can hardly believe there is much information flowing between the two countries. Nothing (or almost) is computarized in the Philippines. I think that is how some of the Filipinos play the game. In the Philippines they claim they are Filipinos and in Europe and the States they acquire another Nationality. Again if you are not active in criminal activities why should the authorities spend time, energy and money to find out? They havealready enough problems to solve in their respective countries. The law forbids it but who cares? It is insignificant for our authorities. Only if there would be a war or if you would go into politics then this could become an issue. I am not active in any criminal activity so I suppose nobody will ever ask any questions about me. Concerning the taxes: I can't be taxed two times. My income generated in Belgium is taxed here (heavily!) and my income generated in the Philippines are taxed in the PH. And again, I am not involved in any criminal activities. I pay my taxes in both countries. I am only a small fish ... They would spend more money to investigate than money they could ever get from me during my whole lifetime...

Well...at least something is computerized in the Philippines...the issuance of a Philippine passport! I don't think it's good to encourage anyone to break the law. For one, the Philippine government does keep track of your income tax. They know if you haven't filed it. Also because that part of the government is computerized. Just because they don't run after you doesn't mean they do not know. Besides what use is a Filipino passport to a former Filipino citizen? She still can own land even if holds a foreign passport. She can come and go into the Philippines as she pleases, they give her a 1 year visa (courtesy of the balikbayan program). If they want to retire here, it's even easier for former Filipino citizens. The Philippine government doesn't allow dual-citizenship but they are working on a law for Filipinos to be able to retain their Filipino Citizenship even if they acquire a 2nd nationality. The law hasn't been ratified yet. ""To love a woman for her virtues is meaningless. She's earned it, it's a payment not a gift. But to love her for her vices is to defile all virtue for her sake. --- and that is a real tribute of love, because you sacrifice your conscience, your reason, your integrity and your valuable self-esteem.""

I was with some dear friends yesterday, foreigners too, who have been here for a considerable amount of time. We get along very well considering as someone posted, Ray Bacon I believe, or maybe Ron MaCarthy I believe--that foreigners will cross the street to avoid one another here. As I talked with my dear friends yesterday I noted some of the usual underlying friction. We know it is there, but don't talk about it, find it uncomfortable and are concerned, but accept it. Someone on the list who had not been here, note, ""It is so strange you guys who seem to get along so good list avoid one another."" And we do to a certain extent, some more than others. Last night before going to sleep I did on of my nutty hypnotic things asking my brain to tell me when I work up in the morning why particular problem this goes on. I did dwell on the problem just before sleeping and even pray for an answer from all sources external and internal as I do. But I go no answer from my subconscious, usually very responsive, even as it ages, often correct, though not always. I just took my mid morning siesta, the best habit the Filipinos have ever got me in. And when I work up, a thought did come, not a blaze of insight but maybe a reason. We foreigners here are treated like royalty by Filipinos. We are waited on hand and foot. We are rarely if ever contradicted, treated with less than the kindest courtesy certainly by our workers who are not in the habit of being contentious with their employers under any circumstances. Everyone is asking our opinion and responding like we just spoke some great truth. I am not sure if they believe it, but they certainly never contradict nor even indicate that we are any less than brilliant demigods, at the very least. Even our neighbors, professional, well traveled to the US and other places some with educations and brains far better than ours, respect us maybe for our age, maybe for our status as foreigners and being from developed countries. They seem like they think maybe we had something personally to do with the success of our countries, tough that is certainly not true and surely they know it. It must just be the Filipino courtesy. I have no idea what some may say behind our backs. So it is rare we are challenged or disputed here. But when we are with other expats, in the heat of conversation and someone says, ""No, Don, that is dead wrong,"" you know they can't be talking to you even if you call your name. You have never been wrong, or at least it has been so long you can't remember. Or at least that has been the case with your Filipino friends and employees. No mater how twisted your mind may be to the Filipino, they accept you, treat you with respect simply because you are human and a guest, one of Gods creatures. The other foreigners expect you to be a little wise too, at least able to chew gum and walk at the same time, to earn that respect, and quick. I have seen one foreigner contradict another foreigner here crudely, like some foreigners treat their helpers and employees just because they can get away with it, and all hell break lose. Maybe the aforementioned artificial utopian interpersonal relationships we have set up with some of the locals make us less tolerant and more sensitive to criticism to the point of often avoiding one another, certainly not seeking one another out. Why risk a relationship with a fellow foreigner(s), relationships in which there could be conflict? This seems especially stupid, when you well know you interact with only Filipinos and avoid all friction, and sail on culture of ""pakikisamaa,"" smooth interpersonal relationships? Maybe that is not ""the"" answer. But it is all my genie gave to me, so I share it. I am always thankful for any even slightly logical explanation for a vexing problem. Maybe someone has thoughts to augment mine. BUT THEY BETTER NOT CONTRADICT ME!

Last Sept 15, I received notification from INS that we had obtained initial approval for the Fiance (K-1) visa we had applied for, with an expiration date of Jan 9, 2002. I called my fiance Ligaya to tell her and also suggest that she go to Manila ""soon"" and apply for police clearances from HK and Singapore and also the NBI. I also told her that the clearances were required (perhaps a little too sternly, but not angrily, but she thought that they ""might not be"") but I could tell that her mood had changed a bit. FYI, a police clearance is required from all countries in which the sponsee has lived since age 16. Ligaya's intention was to wait for the package from the consulate to arrive before beginning. After a week of trying to contact the consulates from here in the US (Singapore was great, never did get HK, but Ligaya had the info), I took a chill pill and said to her, ""you do what you think best"". Last month, FAXED US Embassy, no response, no idea of what is goin on. January 9 looms. Monday, Ligaya receives letter from embassy, was going to call them after Christmas, I suggested she call from a landline in Laoag, where she was headed for the day (Smart cellphone does not seem to connect to US Embassy). I also asked her to inquire about the Jan 9 date. Today, I find out that we have to have all paperwork to the Embassy by January 9; Ligaya may not even get the official package by then, what with the holidays and living in a remote area. But knowing better now, I did not spoil her (great) mood with any concerns. She was quite happy and I did not want to ruin that. I was angry tho, but I got over it in a half hour or so; I did give the Serenity Prayer a good workout today and it works for me. I called INS after calming down to see whether an extension could be applied for or not, was told once they process initial paperwork, it's up to the consulate, but no extensions are granted to their knowledge. So I think we are in trouble with the Jan 9 date and will probably have to refile and wait another 6 months. Ugh. I know that the consulate is in charge of things here and that's life. Anybody have any words of advice on the process? By the way, the fiance files the Statement of Support prepared by the Sponsor with her paperwork at the consulate. I found that part of the process confusing on the old website but it looks like they have revised things lately.

The Philippine government doesn't allow dual-citizenship but they are working on a law for Filipinos to be able to retain their Filipino Citizenship even if they acquire a 2nd nationality. The law hasn't been ratified yet. I am happy to see that post, Joy. Though I know you are not a lawyer and not representing yourself as one, I also believe you are very possibly correct. This could explain a court ruling here that I posted from a newsgroup on the subject when Alex Norbert was trying to determine his status since he was born here, only lived here a few months before he went to the US and became a citizen and wanted to return as a Filipino citizen. That post was about some Filipino judge's decision rendered, that people like Norbert were still full citizens of the Philippines, It stated the US would not take away their citizenship because the Filipino citizen ship had been ""bestowed"" on them, i.e. did not seek it out. The ruling sounded very good for Alex. But later post indicated that the judge's decision did not hold water. Your posting that change has not been ratified sheds new light on the subject. I tried to go to www.pinoylaw.com or some such to get some free legal advice on it some time ago, but did not get a clear answer. Maybe my question was not clear. If you hear or know anymore about this pending change, Joy, please let us know, with citations if possible. I believe that parts of what you mention have already been upheld and ratified by the Supreme Court. Recall the controversy during the last presidential election when Estrada supporters tried to challenge the qualifications of Ozmania? He is a US citizen. The court ruled in effect that once a Filipino, always a Filipino for the purposes of running for public office. Don again: As I said, I read a judges decision that indicated once a Filipino, always a Filipino. But so many recent post of seeming substance seems to indicate otherwise I am now confused. I will try www.pinoyexchange.com where they have a free lawyer to comment on such too. My internet connection is cutting off when I browse. Maybe someone can come up with a firm answer with a citation before I can. Please do try if you have time.

I was with some dear friends yesterday, foreigners too, who have been here for a considerable amount of time. We get along very well considering as someone posted, Ray Bacon I believe, or maybe Ron MaCarthy I believe--that foreigners will cross the street to avoid one another here. As I talked with my dear friends yesterday I noted some of the usual underlying friction. We know it is there, but don't talk about it, find it uncomfortable and are concerned, but accept it. Someone on the list who had not been here, note, ""It is so strange you guys who seem to get along so good list avoid one another."" And we do to a certain extent, some more than others. Last night before going to sleep I did on of my nutty hypnotic things asking my brain to tell me when I work up in the morning why particular problem this goes on. I did dwell on the problem just before sleeping and even pray for an answer from all sources external and internal as I do. But I go no answer from my subconscious, usually very responsive, even as it ages, often correct, though not always. I just took my mid morning siesta, the best habit the Filipinos have ever got me in. And when I work up, a thought did come, not a blaze of insight but maybe a reason. We foreigners here are treated like royalty by Filipinos. We are waited on hand and foot. We are rarely if ever contradicted, treated with less than the kindest courtesy certainly by our workers who are not in the habit of being contentious with their employers under any circumstances. Everyone is asking our opinion and responding like we just spoke some great truth. I am not sure if they believe it, but they certainly never contradict nor even indicate that we are any less than brilliant demigods, at the very least. Even our neighbors, professional, well traveled to the US and other places some with educations and brains far better than ours, respect us maybe for our age, maybe for our status as foreigners and being from developed countries. They seem like they think maybe we had something personally to do with the success of our countries, tough that is certainly not true and surely they know it. It must just be the Filipino courtesy. I have no idea what some may say behind our backs. So it is rare we are challenged or disputed here. But when we are with other expats, in the heat of conversation and someone says, ""No, Don, that is dead wrong,"" you know they can't be talking to you even if you call your name. You have never been wrong, or at least it has been so long you can't remember. Or at least that has been the case with your Filipino friends and employees. No mater how twisted your mind may be to the Filipino, they accept you, treat you with respect simply because you are human and a guest, one of Gods creatures. The other foreigners expect you to be a little wise too, at least able to chew gum and walk at the same time, to earn that respect, and quick. I have seen one foreigner contradict another foreigner here crudely, like some foreigners treat their helpers and employees just because they can get away with it, and all hell break lose. Maybe the aforementioned artificial utopian interpersonal relationships we have set up with some of the locals make us less tolerant and more sensitive to criticism to the point of often avoiding one another, certainly not seeking one another out. Why risk a relationship with a fellow foreigner(s), relationships in which there could be conflict? This seems especially stupid, when you well know you interact with only Filipinos and avoid all friction, and sail on culture of ""pakikisamaa,"" smooth interpersonal relationships? Maybe that is not ""the"" answer. But it is all my genie gave to me, so I share it. I am always thankful for any even slightly logical explanation for a vexing problem.

What a thought provoking subject! I'd never thought about that, though it is very true. But then perhaps we'd have to exclude a category of expat who has no interest in the country or the people, the ones you find keeping company with each other in bars. I certainly do nothing to seek them out, nor do I have any interest in their motives. I don't know anybody who lives in a gated community ether and have no opinion of them and no desire to seek them out. The few expats I happen to come into contact with are folks who have decided to live among the population for one reason or another. It is this category I think you are speaking to. I'm not sure that I would agree with your assessment because I've never thought about it, but we do tend to avoid one another and you may be right. My interaction with my Filipino friends and neighbors is one of mutual respect. I've been a part of the community for a long time and haven't paid any attention to the ""sirs"" and other courtesies for nearly as long, but then I think I return the same courtesies. Most often when another expat approaches me, he's wanting to bitch or whine about something or get my financial support for some harebrained idea. That is principally why I avoid them, most particularly ones I don't know. I was the only foreigner in our neighborhood for a number of years. Then about 8 or 9 years ago an Englishman appeared. I think we are friends and we see each other nearly every day, but we seldom have anything to say to each other. John lives less than 1/2 km from us and drops by the store to do his grocery shopping and we pass pleasantries, but we don't hang out together. He lives as a native in a nipa house with a common-law wife and 6 children. He does odd jobs for a living and at last report he was driving a jeepney. Shortly after I met John an American moved in about 2 km away. He's the role model for the ""Ugly American"" and I try to visit him once during my stay as a courtesy (his wife shops at our store). He seldom leaves his property (he's afraid of his neighbors). Not the kind of company I seek out. Then there's a Greek fellow who I rarely see about 1 1/2 km away. I think he is of like mind, nice fellow, but we have very different interests and lives. Up toward Toledo there's a large population of Norwegian expats and I have never stopped to talk with any of them (nor they with me), though we do nod and smile at each other. I don't go to the RP to seek out other foreigners, I have no business with them. I see plenty of Americans here. When I visit Cebu on my next trip I'd like to meet with Don and maybe share a tale or two over a coffee. He'll be welcome to visit Mohon as well and as often as he likes, but I don't think we'd be spending much time together and that is nothing against Don! I'll think about it more. But I'm thinking that I don't avoid foreigners because of the way Filipinos spoil me (I think that is more a facade and courtesy). I think it is more that we really have very little interest in each other and if a strange foreigner seems overly friendly, it's someone I want to avoid anyway!

es, I think that is the answer as I also got the same response when I posted. Bob Martin is probably set up to receive email copies of every post but being under the weather has not cleaned out this backlog and is over his quota (I sure hope he is getting back into the swing of things soon). About the topicY of one country not communicating with another about nationality (actually citizenship) or taxes I am surprized about how much they DO talk to each other. When applying for a citizenship in another country we are asked for a police report, medical, proof of solvency, etc. These items are all checked and our countries are informed/asked for verification, and then would likely be told when we become citizens of the new country. Canadians are allowed dual citizenship, as I believe are Americans. Filipinos/filipinas, as it stands, are NOT. This may change in the future apparently. As to taxes I am aware that the U.S. government turns over a list of all Canadians that have accounts in the U.S. to the Canadian government. This must work the other way also. As well as with other countries. Canadian citizens who are residents in Canada must pay taxes on their Worldly income (it is my understanding that this applies to Americans also). On the other hand Canadian citizens who are NON residents only pay Canadian taxes on their Canadian income (again it is my understanding that Americans must still report Worldly income to the US no matter where they live).

I agree with this post. filipinos do have a great skill in bending the truth and its not just the women that im thinking of. let me put it in a historical perspective so that you can understand the development of this psyche. filipinos learned two very valuable skills under the occupation of spain japan and the usa. their job was to please their masters and a key skill that came with it is the skill to lie to please the masters and to lie to make themselves look good in the eyes of the masters. The philippines was under the spanish rule for over 300 years. in the period of this occupation the filipinos were ingrained with the tenet that they do not measure up to the european standards of the conquistadors. they were second class citizens not beautiful enough, not educated enough, not civilized nor sophisticated enough to lead an existence next to the spanish high culture. catholicism and the cross were used to subjugate and gain social control and the cult of the virgin and religious guilt took hold. the japanese raped and pillaged for a bit but our liberators rescued us brought a taste of the good life and the american dream-- capitalism, hollywood, and spam. unfortunately all we got is a taste and presently were mired in the quagmire of consumerism, marketing and commercialism. who are filipinos now? did they escape the predicament they were in over 350 years ago? well, 90% of the wealth and resources still belong to 20 families descendants of the illustrados of the spanish times, our homes are full of blaring radios and televisions touting the new and improved latest products a good filipino just got to have and we have hollywood style politicos hell bent on sucking the marrow of the countrys bank vaults at the expense of her people. we have no choice but to be whores to the rest of the world whether were entertainers, housewives, accountants, doctors, and nurses. we still cannot thrive in our country and enslavement is our lot in life especially since we want to buy a piece of the promised land. the name of the game is survival. what does all this have to do with your girlfriend? first of all maybe she lied because she was in a survival mode. she didnt know if she can trust you with the truth. maybe she still saw you as many of us saw our masters- a meal ticket and she would have employed the skills and art that so many of our ancestors utilized. maybe now shes seeing beyond that and shes developed some sort of trusting relationship with you and shes opening herself and leaving herself vulnerable. remember this is just the beginning because if you are able to accept the real her then be ready to take in the rest of her (families and expectations). good luck to you.

Well your wife could apply for a Filipino passport in the Philippines. They will never ask if she holds another passport. She just lost her last Filipino passport and applies for a new one. If she don't tell she is a Belgian, how the hell can they know? (Of course she can't ask it in Belgium at the Filipine Embassy.) I can hardly believe there is much information flowing between the two countries. Nothing (or almost) is computarized in the Philippines. I think that is how some of the Filipinos play the game. In the Philippines they claim they are Filipinos and in Europe and the States they acquire another Nationality. Again if you are not active in criminal activities why should the authorities spend time, energy and money to find out? They havealready enough problems to solve in their respective countries. The law forbids it but who cares? It is insignificant for our authorities. Only if there would be a war or if you would go into politics then this could become an issue. I am not active in any criminal activity so I suppose nobody will ever ask any questions about me. Concerning the taxes: I can't be taxed two times. My income generated in Belgium is taxed here (heavily!) and my income generated in the Philippines are taxed in the PH. And again, I am not involved in any criminal activities. I pay my taxes in both countries. I am only a small fish ... They would spend more money to investigate than money they could ever get from me during my whole lifetime...

Citizenship issues is kinda hard because you have to actually check the laws at the time of his birth. The Philippine constitution has changed 3 times already since the 1930's (Malolos constitution, 1972 constitution by Marcos and the 1986 constitution by Cory Aquino) and at some point dual citizenship was allowed whereas with the current constitution, it does not. And it would make sense that Alex would retain his Filipino citizenship (hence would maintain 2 passports as a because of his cual citizenship) cuz, just like Lito Osmena, he was also born to it. He didn't seek it. Though, as far as I know...it's not enough to be born here to acquire Filipino citizenship. You have to be born of Filipino parents as well. Am not sure though...I will check with some lawyer/judge cousins of mine and will give an update.

From the website of the Philippine consulate in New York... http://philconsulateny.home.mindspring.com/FAQCitizenship.pdf FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ON CITIZENSHIP 1. How is citizenship acquired? Modern law recognizes three distinct ways of acquiring citizenship: 1. Jus sanguinis - or Law of the Blood. Under this principle, children acquire the citizenship of their parents. 2. Jus soli - or Law of the Soil. Under this principle, children acquire the citizenship of the place of birth. 3. Naturalization - the legal act of adopting an alien as a citizen. 2. What law is followed in the Philippines? In the United States? The Philippines follows the principle of jus sanguinis. Hence, children born of fathers or mothers who are Filipino citizens are also Filipino citizens. The United States follows the principle of jus soli. Hence, children born in the United States are American citizens. Both the Philippines and the United States also have laws on naturalization. Hence, an alien in the Philippines can become a Filipino citizen. An alien in the United States can also become an American citizen. 3. What is dual citizenship? Dual citizenship is the status of a person who is a citizen of two or more states. For example, a child born in the United States of parents who are Filipino citizens is both a Filipino (since his parents are Filipinos at the time of birth) and an American (since he was born in the United States). 4. Is dual citizenship recognized in the Philippines? Because Philippine law has no control over citizenship laws of other countries, dual citizenship is unavoidable. Under Law Instruction No. RBR-99002 issued by the Bureau of Immigration on 15 April 1999, any child born of a Filipino parent may now be recognized as a Filipino citizen after submission of the following requirements: a. Petition or Letter-Request made under oath; b. Authenticated Birth Certificate of the child; c. Birth Certificate of the Filipino parent; d. Affidavit of Citizenship made by the applicant's Filipino parent attesting to his or her citizenship at the time of the birth of the child; e. Photocopy of the child's passport; f. Photocopy of the Filipino parent's passport; g. Proof of Filipino citizenship of a parent at the time of the birth of the child other than their passports. 5. If I am a dual citizen, can I file a Petition for Recognition with the Philippine Consulate? No. You must file the petition directly with the Bureau of Immigration at Magallanes Drive, Intramuros, Manila. However, you can have the required documents authenticated with the Philippine Consulate before you submit them to the Bureau. 6. If I am a dual citizen, do I need to obtain a Certificate of Recognition mentioned in Question Number 4 before I can get a Philippine Passport? No. The Certificate of Recognition is not a requirement for a Philippine passport. As long as you are a Filipino citizen, you can get a Philippine passport. 7. How is Filipino citizenship lost? The more common ways by which Philippine citizenship may be lost are: 1. By naturalization in a foreign country; 2. By express renunciation of citizenship; 3. By subscribing to an oath of allegiance to support the Constitution of a foreign country, and 4. By cancellation of a certificate of naturalization as a Filipino citizen. 8. I am a Filipino who was naturalized as an American citizen. Do I have dual citizenship? No, you do not have dual citizenship. You lost your Filipino citizenship when you became a naturalized citizen of the United States. Also, because you do not have dual citizenship, you cannot file a Petition for Recognition mentioned in Question 5. 9. How is Filipino citizenship reacquired? Filipino citizenship may be reacquired through naturalization. 10. Can I reacquire Filipino citizenship without losing my American citizenship? No, you cannot reacquire Filipino citizenship without losing your American citizenship. An applicant for naturalization as a Filipino citizen is required to renounce his allegiance and fidelity to the state of which he is a subject or citizen. In your case, you would be required to renounce your American citizenship before you can be naturalized as a Filipino citizen.

I dare you question my categorically infallible divine declaration you heathenish infidel, disrespector of superior beings and you reject from a maggotorium. Better watch your back the rest of your short life. The dark and bloody angels of violent death seek you at this very moment. Gurrrr! (That ""Gurrr!""is the best anger sound I can make.) BlankNew subject: Plea for help from the technically competent. Al Cockrel was very helpful in showing me how to delete that ""Blank"" that always showed up when I sent a message. Thank you Al! (I couldn't resist inserting the ""Blank"" above. If you see it, Al, I put it there, not the program: a jest, unlike Jason who totally lacks a sense of humor.) Maybe you, Al, or someone else can help me again. But maybe it is an ISP problem. Thank all of you who offered to help me before though Al had already solved the problem. The Problem: Most of the time I send mail out I get a bounce from something I have never sent. Or if I did send it, was a long time ago and only once. But keeps bouncing back again and again. I can live with it, but don't want to. I think it is something I sent to one of Bob Martin's friends or Bob Martin because it has a Mindanao address. It says the account is over quota. But I am not sending anything to it intentionally. But I am sending somehow from I can see from the routing. This is it below:

I understand what you say. There are two different sets of law involved, Filipino and US. One has nothing to do with the other. Dual citizenship is not allowed on face value in the US, however there are many exceptions. Supposedly when one is born to foreign parents in the US the baby may carry dual citizenship for instance. There was a time when it was required that they had to declare a choice when they reached the age of majority, but that has become optional and a person may choose to never make that declaration. However, whatever the US decides to do with dual citizenship has nothing to do with what the RP may choose to do. While a naturalized citizen of the US must denounce all other citizenship's when they are sworn in as US citizens, their governments may choose to ignore that fact. And that is what the Supreme Court chose to do in the case of ""US citizens"" running for public offices. Osmena didn't have to renounce his US citizenship, though he did publicly when he thought that it would loose votes if he didn't. If the Supreme Court had ruled in favor of Estrada's suit, there would have been many other public officials banned from the election.

Unfortunately, I just don't like most of the foreigners I meet here in the Philippines. I am far from perfect myself, I am happy the rest of us on the list don't have the lack of perfection problem.but I find many ofthem arrogant, as if they do believe they are as important as the Filipinos would like them to think. I guess if you hear ""sir"" this and ""boss"" that, long enough you might start thinking you deserve it. Dear Brother Rick, Your observations are not unusual, as you know. Ron has expressed similar ones, I feel them and have expressed them too. There are others who have the same feelings some who express them and some who don't. There are some who can't stand the Filipino. They are really confused with the mixed signals they get, and not smart enough to pick up on the simple fact that cultures, even though they seem similar are different. Those sit in the bars with other of the same ilk and sulk. But it sure is had to get them to leave. They are the ones that had groups they hated in the States, more than likely. They had a ""Them against us,"" attitude in the States and brought it with them. And they are not usually crazy about their selves or their drinking partners. If they were not drunk finding fault with the Filipino, together, they would probably be fighting. It takes all breeds. I have said it before, it is an odd bird that flies over here, or at least a different one. And when we start to thing about dealing with ""our own"" we need to think about what we want from relationships. Even in the States, in select groups where I know I have thing in common with the members, I find people I just don't want to be around. Our pool of countrymen is very limited here. And many are square pegs trying to force them self into triangular holes, suffering from frustrations that maybe insurmountable for them, especially if they have had limited experience with people of other culture, even in their own country. The US is a diverse culture. But most of us stay with friends just like us, or have no friends at all except for telephone friends, friends at work, e-mail friends we can keep at a distance. Here there is not structure defined. If you meet another foreigner, what do you do. If you see him on the street in the States, you will probably not make eye contact with him or her. So are you going to go out of your way to talk to a guy you wouldn't even acknowledge in your country, just because you are in the same foreign one? To be safe, stay with Filipinos you know and trust. But to broaden your network of support and intelligence it is good to open yourself a bit, very carefully to some, only slightly to see if there is some mutual benefit and joy that may come from the relationship. You indeed must be careful. I would go so far as to say it is an art that is not inborn in most but learned. It takes effort and is not worth it to some. If so, there effort and the bruises from the certain occasional failure you will no doubt experience. We always speak in general terms here, the only way to we can communicate. And it is a hard thing to do, since we are all so different. We are all civil, but most of us are old enough to feel we have it figured out, if not for every body, certainly ourselves. And that is all that matters. Most of us are wise enough not to push our ideas off on others, maybe because we know that does not work from past failures. It is good we can have these Net friends. And it is good that we can exchange not only information but feelings that are as much or more important and harder to share. I think that is why we look for foreigners to share emotional problems with, some who have them similar to ours. But then we are so often disappointed to find out how different they are from us. They may be looking for revenge while we may be looking to find a way to forgive or vice versa. I will stop this ramble now. I forgot my point, frankly. I had a response to Ron's post, but lost it accidentally and don't know if it is worth putting back together. I will point out that this e-mail stuff seems to be a way to share a lot of thing with a lot of different people without a lot of hostility or risk. Even you and people like Ron and sometimes me who will avoid fellow expats feel comfortable here. Our flames are amazingly low, except for Jason the doubting Thomas. (I am going to stop this nonsense now, Jason. Some new member might take it seriously who have just turned in or someone may read my hopefully comical rave in the archives and be naive enough to think it serious. Thank you for being such a good sport, Jason. I really appreciated your quick rejoinder. It is wonderful to have you back on the list. You sound like you are in fine spirits, ready to go at it again. Can you please share your experience with us. Threre are many of us, older than you, with a few extra pounds, maybe a bit too much stress in our lives and a bunch of exercise that may be subject to some similar health problems. I know you are taking good care of your self, and if not totally recovered will be soon. I got my visa here. I don't know anyone who got heirs for less than mine, except for one cheap charlie who managed to skim by for $400. Mine was $600 and included standing in the hot Manila Immigration office for many hours. I have mentioned your previous post about how much easier and cheaper they were to get in the States. Some don't have that opportunity as in my case and have to payt the price. But those who can get them in the States certainly should heed your good advice not only to save money but to prevent themselves from suffering in the Manila Immigration office, not a pleasant place to spend the day. Hopefully, one day they will have this stuff so you can get your paperworke done on either side of the pond quickly and at a reasonable price, without bribes. I guess 20 precent of my cost was to ""expedite"" the process. My attorney was going to give me a deal and get it or me for $1,000. That is when I decided to do it myself. At the time it was worth saving the $400. But today, I don't think so.

This is somewhat related to the topic: ""Secret misery that exists within many Filipina's souls"". I thought I would tell the group why my family and I decided to Immigrate to the Philippines. There are lots of reasons. When I married my lovely Filipina wife, in her town, she was only 22 years old. I was about 37. I knew at the time, that I would not take her from the Philippines (her home and culture), if I could help it. But I couldn't. In my selfishness, need, and love -- I returned back to El Paso, Texas, USA. After the paperwork was processed, she followed me, about 6 months latter. My wife already had good English communication abilities. Well educated. She came from a middle class Filipino family, with a car, and a house better than my home in El Paso. Her family had often had maids, and servants as she grew up. I would say her family was well off, but not overly rich. Middle class. When she arrived in El Paso. She became pregnant quickly, with our first child. We didn't know many Filipinas there. A few, but not many. She found some Filipina friends, but mainly ones which spoke the same dialogue. There was a Filipino Club, but it mainly met on the other side of town, a pretty good distance from us. My wife learned to drive, but still she didn't have many friends. We moved to a nicer house, but we lived in suburbia. We didn't know hardly any of the neighbors well. Not nearly as many of them, as before we moved. I'm not as sociable as I wish I were at times. Most of my friends, were coworkers from the office I worked in. I'd come home -- the garage door would open, and it would close. We had a second baby. My wife stayed home, taking care of the children. It was hard to cope. We tried to get her mother to come visit us, and help. But the USA immigration office in Manila, would NOT let her mother come visit. The office hardly even glanced at her application before refusing twice. I still don't know why. Isolated, overworked and more alone than I wish -- no wonder my wife was frustrated and bored in the United States. In the Philippines, my wife usually stayed at home with her family. She wasn't the type that often went out to party. That worked well for her in the Philippines. But in the United States -- it did not. I had grown dissatisfied with my job. I felt like a ""wage slave"". I had dreamed of living in another country, for most of my adult life. I could get a job in another part of the USA, maybe in a city with lots more Filipinas for my wife to be friends with. But still, I felt that my wife -- would be unhappy. Living anywhere in the USA, in a city, would probably be too much like living in the El Paso suburbia. I had only been to the Philippines once before for a month, when we were getting married. But in some respects Cebu is like Mexico, which is on the border with El Paso. I was pretty sure I would feel comfortable in the Philippines. My wife and I both felt our children would grow up well in the Philippines. I hoped and prayed that our family would do well in the Philippine. We decided to immigrate to the Philippines. It is more complicated than this of course, but we decided to immigrate and move.

I had grown dissatisfied with my job. I felt like a ""wage slave"". I had dreamed of living in another country, for most of my adult life. I could get a job in another part of the USA, maybe in a city with lots more Filipinas for my wife to be friends with. But still, I felt that my wife would be unhappy. Living anywhere in the USA, in a city, would probably be too much like living in the El Paso suburbia. I had only been to the Philippines once before for a month, when we were getting married. But in some respects Cebu is like Mexico, which is on the border with El Paso. I was pretty sure I would feel comfortable in the Philippines. My wife and I both felt our children would grow up well in the Philippines. I hoped and prayed that our family would do well in the Philippine. We decided to immigrate to the Philippines. It is more complicated than this of course, but we decided to immigrate and move. Robert, that's an interesting and moving story. Robert is a long-time member of the list who doesn't post frequently but always has something valuable to add and has done some welcome behind-the-scenes work, such as organizing the database of the 1,000-plus posts from pre-Yahoo days. Robert, for the benefit of all the list newcomers, can you tell us a little about your experience since arriving in the RP? When did you move? What have been the pluses and minuses for you, your wife and children? Continued good luck to you and your family. Subject: New Member - a Pinoy Just found this group today and find it very interesting and informative. I am a Filipino who loves to see the Philippines when time and resource permits me. I have been to SEA countries but would rather spend my money here to help our economy. Places I've been include Batanes, Sagada, Baler, Puerto Princesa, Catanduanes aside from the more traveled path like Baguio, Boracay, Cebu, Davao and Bohol. I usually travel all by myself, meeting people along the way. On three occasions, I was accomodated by local families as there are no lodging houses in the places I visited. I prefer taking the less traveled path. Right now, I would like to embark on a personal mission. That is to make a compilation of all bus, ship, ferry, planes schedules around the Philippines. The most common question asked by travellers is how to get to their intended destination. Or the cheapest way of getting there. Let's take Boracay. The most popular route is taking a plane to Kalibo and then by land to Caticlan and a ferry to the island. I'm sure some of you may be aware of other routes like a ship at pier 12 departs every Mon, Wed and Fri for Boracay via Romblom. Have not taken this route though. Or how can one go to Batanes when there is no more PAL flights to Basco? The lonelyplanet site lists an island in Samar but doesn't say how to get there. Im quite new here and have not read all the previous posts about getting around Philippines. I hope you can share with me informations about this and I am envisioning a web site for all of these info. I'll try to share whatever limited knowledge I have in finding your way around here.

Isolated, overworked and more alone than I wish -- no wonder my wife was frustrated and bored in the United States. In the Philippines, my wife usually stayed at home with her family. She wasn't the type that often went out to party. That worked well for her in the Philippines. But in the United States -- it did not. Isolated, frustrated, bored and homesick too, it what I heard from the Filipinos I talked to in the States, Robert, Filipino wives, single men, women married and single. I hear it over and over again. Certainly there were exceptions. And I know your wife ""adapted well,"" as many do. My point is they are away from their loved ones, their culture, often in numbing cold weather, locked away from not only their extended families and native language, but the warmth of the smiles, love and joys of living in the Philippines. I found in my travels and my relationships Filipinos over the year in the States, some good friends, some who I knew only slightly, that only reason most stayed was for money, jobs, to help their families. Foremost in their mind was a visit home where they wished they could stay. Some did get caught up in the culture they were in, US or other, and ""over adapted"" rejecting Filipino values and some even became ashamed of being Filipinos. Many in the Southwest suffered discrimination in the work place and social situations because they were foreigners or mistakenly ""Hispanic"" most often considered Mexican American Farm workers when in fact they were doctors, lawyers, CPA's, nurses and engineers, but like Mexicans, small with darker skin than the average White Anglo Saxon American Protestant (Male) WASP, my breed, who dominates the States to this day. (I say this, though I feel the WASP (Female) may have replaced the men now, and certainly get favorable treatment from the legal system in some states and some instances.) Some Filipinos swore they were never discriminated against, not an unusual perception, when there was no doubt they were. When people discriminate against you illegally, they do not tell you. I can tell you as a former Investigator for the US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission and a former racist born in Mississippi, who worked in the area of civil rights, those who are discriminated against are the last ones to know, more often than not. (I am well aware that some discrimination is not illegal and is necessary, normal an certainly not immoral or counter productive. Please note I said ""illegal discrimination."" ) I lived with my Filipina wife in the States for eight years and Africa for almost three. She adapted very well. She was well educated, intelligent, a leader with excellent interpersonal skills with Filipinos and others. She was every thing from a prison guard at Lorton, Federal Penitentiary, where serious criminals were sent, to a successful stock broker in Washington D. C. She never complained about anything. She had Filipino friends, US friends and others. We always had visitors. She was miserably homesick for her mother and father and her siblings from day one. We finally go her brother over but the father died and the Mother did not want to come. I talked to many of her friends, often in their language, with her by my side often, about their feelings in the States. They liked the good pay and the good jobs. They missed their familial and their home. Most would have returned in a fraction of a heartbeat if it were not for the financial needs of their families. Almost every one was pathologically homesick though they rarely shared this deep pain with even their beloved foreign spouses. Thank you for your post, Robert. I hope others who have had similar or vastly different experiences will pass them on. I those of you who have read my post know I feel that taking a Filipina/o to the States, or other ""paradise"" is not always such a big favor for them, but more often a mixed blessing at best. I am sure there are others who feel differently with good reason. We all speak from our own world views. Mine may be totally warped. But I report only what I hear an see, not speculation. And as I have said many times before, I generalize by necessity. As a psychologist, trained and experienced investigator, a deep interest and former teacher in cross cultural interaction, some skill in interpersonal relationships when I am wise enough and have the presence of mind to use them, I generally trust my assessments in this narrow area. I am sure others trust heir's, totally different than mine, with equally strong reasons and qualifications. I may very well be wrong. Those who disagree with me, may have far more insight and first hand knowledge, be correct where I have miscued. If so, please let me and the others on the list hear from you. It is Christmas Ever here. Ani's three younger sisters from Leyte are with us for the holiday season. I hope your holidays are a joy too, and that next year is a better one for us all, and our sometime teetering world.

Since he has a Philippine passport, he came in on, it has an arrival date in the Philippines stamped in it. And his US passport he has with him also when he leaves had a Philippine entry stamp in it also. Then he exits the Philippines and has an exit stamp on it from the Philippines. But when he show up at the Hong Kong airport to leave using his US passport, it still shows him in the Philiippines, di ba? He has no exit stamp in his US passport from the Philippines. I have heard a lot of these schemes but never saw one that worked without bribes or dishonesty. What am I missing? I hold 2 British passports both legally obtained. This is allowed (albeit reluctantly) in some cases where one can show they often need to travel on business. The case recently arose where I needed a visa to enter country ""X"" and it would take a long time to process the visa application so I gave them my passport ""B"" (in fact I had to courier the passport from the RP to an agent in London to get the visa). I had entered RP on passport ""A"" and I had to extend my visa at the Bureau of Immigration. So, when the time came to travel I had to use passport ""A"" to exit RP and passport ""B"" to enter country I have been in similar situations many times and never had a problem with it. In practice I have found it exceedingly rare when entering any country that the immigration authorities have any interest to see an exit stamp from the last point of departure. Indeed, this would be a futile exercise in any case as when traveling in/out of EU countries they don't usually place entry or exit stamps in passports anyway. The fact that my visa for country ""X"" was issued in London but I had never traveled to London on that passport was of no concern to anyone either (both my passports were issued by the British Embassy in Manila). If asked where is your exit stamp from your last point of departure you can simply say they did not stamp your passport, which is likely to be true if you traveled from Europe. In any case no one could produce evidence dispute your claim.

We're greatly relieved here on having avoided typhoon Faxei, couldn't believe it yesterday when reading the SunStar that they were expecting it in Cebu! I do find Saipan a bit friendlier than Guam, I'd guess because the Filipinos there are mostly OCW's and still fully identify with home, while here many haven't visited the RP since they immigrated. Suplado, I guess. Sorry, States, we voted with our feet, and we won't be back. I've only visited Puerto Rico & Virgin Islands, but no comparison with the Marianas Islands, this is the most comfortable for us. Just a hop, skip & jump to the Philippines (Yap, Palau, Manila). Now if Cebu Pacific starts the direct flights they've promised, we'll no longer have to endure the Manila shuffle. But only a couple of trips more until we're buying one-way tickets.

I first visited Davao this past April to visi my first ""penpal"", who has sice married a fellow Filipino (we were true penpals, saying up front that we were friends). I loved it there! I had been to Manila, Cebu (spent 60 days there in 2000-2001), Laoag, Sinait, Vigan, Baguio and San Carlos on Negros; I thought Cebu was my favorite place til saw the others. Davao would be mysecond choice to live, only because I know so many people in Cebu. But it is my fiance's choice over Cebu (she's Ilocano), since her prime competetion was from Cebu and I think she's still a little jealous. I'll make a decision tomorrow (Christmas Day) on heading back to the Phils on the 5th or 6th of Jan and departing on the 31st; Ligaya is having some difficulties with the visa process, getting police clearances from Singapore and HK, plus I owe some paperwork also. It's a little more expensive than FEDEX to deliver papers in person, but a lot more fun. We may spend a couple of days in Mnl (will try Townhouse Hotel maybe) then WG&A to Davao for 4 or 5 days, then fly to Cebu for 4 days before heading to Mnl and Laoag (by bus, uggg, 12 hours!). For someone who hasn't decided to travel yet, I've made quite a few plans, hehehe. If I do get to Cebu (Ligaya again), I'll look you up Do. This is a budget rip but my one splurge will be 4 nights at the Marriot. And Oh Georg! at 3 PM for coffee and sightseeing. I think I've bought 1 of everything Kamaru has to offer except back packs, so I'll have to head there also. Just call at 255 5047 or 253 9903. I am going to your site now to look at the pics. I hope I find prominent link to ""Living in the Philippines,"" there. If not, I know you are in the process making it. :) I am going to make some uncalled comments, Chip, not just for you, but others who may be similarly situated. In the Family code it is very specifically spelled out that it is in the husband's domain to determine the place of residence in the Philippines. It is his ""responsibility, his duty."" You can bend to a Filipina's desires. But you may find yourself bending again and again. If you chose to live in Davao, I would make it clear that you are not ""doing it for her,"" but that you are doing it for yourself and her, yourself first. You are expected to make those kind of decisions. And if you don't, you are perceived by some, maybe even your wife, as weak. What wife wants a weak husband? You can quickly become ""under the saya,"" meaning under the skirts, like a shy child hiding under his mother's skirt, I believe is how it goes. For sure it means henpecked in English. If so, Filipinos may not respect you, including your wife. Guys come over here, meet their honey ko and say ""Where would you like to eat tonight or what."" To some, most I feel, you are showing your cultural insanity. Why would a man abdicate his rights to chose, to make a decision, to lead and instead put the burden for a possible bad choice on a woman, often a girl, much younger and inexperienced than him. And as far as eating goes. You like O Gorg! and I do too. But if you want to please your wife, *you* decide to get rice and fish and a place similar to that she is used too. If she went to O Georg! type places before she met you, it cool to take here to those places. So many guys take girls to places where they are very uncomfortable. They are not used to being waited on and spending big money for food, starred at and such. Barbecue on a stick on the street can be fun. McDonalds and Jollibee are good alternatives. They impress, but not overwhelmed. I know if you offer to take a girl to McDonalds in the States, you might as well offer the sewer. This is not the States. McDo is in and considered expensive though it has the lowest prices of any McDo in any country in the world. Again, I generalize. Your girl may be the five star hotel type and not appreciate anything less. Most are terrified though they will tell you they are not, I find, when I question. When the truth some out, they would much prefer a place like home, where they can relax. Most ""homes"" are not elegant as you well know. First and foremost, of course, have a wonderful time. With love, everything will work out. But some common sense and cultural understanding can make it happen quicker.

The Municipality of Tuburan is located in the northern part of Cebu Province and is approximately 96.7 kms from Cebu City. It is bounded on the North by the Municipality of Tabuelan; on the South by the Municipality of Asturias; on the East by the Municipalities of Sogod and Catmon; and on the West by Tanon Strait