Author Topic: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?  (Read 826 times)

Offline Lee2

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Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« on: November 18, 2016, 08:06:00 PM »
So much fuss being made about him, if he really stole all that money from the people then the answer should be obvious.  :-\
:) Happily married since 1994 & live part of the year in Cebu and the rest in S. Florida.

Offline iamjames

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2016, 10:53:02 PM »
Stealing and corruption is so ingrained  in the Philippine psyche that the people forgive those transgressions after just a smack on the wrist. The attitude is far removed from western reactions where the population would be far less forgiving.

Offline BobHarding

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2016, 11:02:45 PM »
27 years is a long time to be laying around dead for a long time in Hawaii and then since 1993 in the Philippines...kinda weird.

Offline Balisidar

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2016, 06:15:38 AM »
Did he deserve a hero's burial?  Not in my book but the Philippine people in general are very forgiving.  I remember how much my wife despised him back in 1986 but now she thinks it's no problem that he's been interred as a hero.

Offline midaut

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2016, 09:49:03 AM »
Did he deserve a hero's burial?  Not in my book but the Philippine people in general are very forgiving.  I remember how much my wife despised him back in 1986 but now she thinks it's no problem that he's been interred as a hero.

If Filipinos are “very forgiving”, then Indonesians are “very, very, very forgiving”.  Former Indonesian President Suharto was buried in a state funeral with full honors and military honor guards.  A week of official mourning was declared, and all flags were flown at half-mast. 

Offline Hestecrefter

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2016, 03:41:41 AM »
Perhaps he is being recognized as a hero for stealing so much, from so many, in so short a time. 

Offline midaut

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2016, 10:06:51 AM »
Perhaps he is being recognized as a hero for stealing so much, from so many, in so short a time.

To be fair, there is no proof that he had stolen anything from anybody.

Offline JoeLP

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2016, 07:47:39 PM »
As mentioned above, it's the Filipino way.  Basically, you had a country that was progressing well.  Education, roads, electric systems, hospitals, and more was all moving forward at a very good pace when Marcos was in charge.  And HE was the corrupt person in a government mostly kept clean by him. 

Now they have a government that has grown, and every member is corrupt(pretty much) and the system spent decades just floating and doing little to no improvement.

This is NOT justifying what he did.  He's a crook, in my eyes.  But, just a way to look at it from the outside and some things to think about.
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Offline Lee2

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2016, 09:34:06 PM »
To be fair, there is no proof that he had stolen anything from anybody.

I have no direct knowledge but here is a quote that sort of fits
Quote
Harry S Truman: No man can get rich in politics unless he's a crook. It cannot be done. 

Also according to this site http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Philippines/sub5_6b/entry-3845.html
Quote
MARCOS’S PLUNDER AND WEALTH


 Marcos reportedly took a $5 billion to $10 billion fortune while in office. The figure has often been cited by the Philippine government and was obtained by the C.I.A. using unknown methods. In any case, this is in sharp contrast to the reported income of the Marcoses from 1966 to 1986 of around $300,000 a year. In 1999, Imelda said that her "legendary" husband got rich from gold trading and luck and said he planned to use the bulk of money for development projects to help his country.

 In 1999, Imelda also declared that her family owns “virtually all of the Philippines." When the Marcoses were in power the national treasury was like the Marcos’s piggy bank. Any money the Philippines earned—whether through taxes, tariffs, land sales—could end up in the Marcoses pockets. Moreover, the Marcoses gave many special deals to their cronies and awarded them lucrative concessions to timber, minerals and cash crops. It is hard to imagine that the Marcoses didn’t receive some kind of kickback or share of the profits in the scheme.

 According to widely circulated story a three-foot-high Golden Buddha stashed with diamonds and other gems, hundreds of gold bars and other valuables accumulated by Japanese General Tomoyuki Yamashita during World War II as booty was hidden shortly before the end of war. A poor locksmith reportedly found the Buddha and gold in a tunnel near a hospital in 1971 only to have it seized by Marcos and stored away in a Swiss Vault. Later a Swiss court in Zurich ordered Imelda Marcos, as heir to her husband's fortune, Zurich to pay the family of the locksmith $460 million. 

So you cannot pay someone $460 million out of thin air. Then there is
Quote
In 1997, the Swiss Supreme Court ruled that Marcos deposits amounting to $570 million were “criminally acquired and thus should be returned to the Philippine government.” The Swiss banks that had the accounts tried to block the collection. In September, 2000, a Swiss anti-graft court ruled the money could be seized because it exceeded the amount of Marcos’s income then it reversed itself in 2002 and said the money could not be seized because they were in the name of foundations and the government could not completely prove they belonged to the Marcoses. The anti-graft court blamed the Philippines government for not submitting authenticated copies of a Swiss court ruling that said the funds were ill-gotten wealth.

 In July 2003, the Swiss Supreme Court awarded the Philippines government the money in Marcos’s frozen accounts. The court said that the Marcoses had failed to prove that their assets were legally acquired and, “hence, the Swiss deposits should be considered ill-gotten wealth and forfeited in favor the State.” The money in the accounts was valued at $658.2 million. According to Philippine law most of the money was supposed to be spent on land reform.

 Initially believed to be worth $15 billion, Marcos's Swiss accounts were later valued at several hundreds of million dollars. But these only included accounts of Imelda and Ferdinand, not members of their entourage or cronies. Over the years, millions of dollars was spent on legal fees.

The fact that they had that much money should be proof enough that they did not make it legally. One can double, triple or even quadruple their own money investing if they are very lucky but never accumulate that much money investing, thus if they had 10's of millions instead of hundred's of millions then maybe they got that by investing.
:) Happily married since 1994 & live part of the year in Cebu and the rest in S. Florida.

Offline Hestecrefter

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2016, 11:54:57 PM »
To be fair, there is no proof that he had stolen anything from anybody.

Well alrighty then.  Can I say he repurposed the money?  Liberated it?  Diverted it to a more worthy cause, perhaps?

Offline David690

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Re: Did Marcos deserve a hero's burial?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2016, 01:25:44 AM »
Personally I don't have the knowledge or experience from those days to have an informed opinion.  I am posting here something that came up on my FB by a Philipinno who clearly has experienced those Marcos days.  If only a fraction of what he describes is true, then Marcos was no hero.......

Dear Marcos fan,

I don't know who you are, where you come from, what your history and personal story is.

Perhaps it was your parents, or grandparents, or your favorite teachers, or things you've read somewhere on the Internet or on Facebook that made you believe that life was so bright and beautiful during his era.

Perhaps, it was your personal experience that serves as your evidence of his greatness.

That, I will never fully know.

But what I do know is that you think he is the best President of all time. That he was a great soldier. That he built 20 power plants. That he was responsible for the San Juanico Bridge and all the other bridges. That he built 108 state colleges. That he started the Green Revolution and Blue Revolution. That there were plenty of food during his time.

And what I also know is that you spend a lot of your energy calling anti-Marcos protests and posts as mechanisms by the Yellow Army. That we are all mindless, blind, dumb but well-paid soldiers for the Aquino family. And maybe sometimes you go a little over by calling us insulting names, and involving our genders, families, or by wishing us to get raped or even wishing us to die a slow death and something like that.

But what I don't know is with all the resources easily available with just a few clicks, is if you've taken the time to check if the enchanting stories coming from your closest relatives were indeed all true.

Or if you've ever wondered if what you personally experienced, if you lived at that moment, is what the rest of the country experienced too.

Because the reality of things is that Marcos is no hero.

While the entire Marcos Family stole a total of P170 billion

to buy Imelda Marcos her tens and thousands of expensive, authentic jewels, designer clothes and shoes,

to afford a daily Philippine Airlines trip to deliver Imee Marcos' breastfeed milk to her kid in the Philppines every day even if she was anywhere in the world,

to fund Bongbong Marcos' machinery for his Vice President candidacy,

to support Sandro Marcos' education in Oxford,

and to make the life of the entire family be as luxurious as possible in any country they wish to live in,

Here in the Philippines during the Martial Law

people the same age as you or your daughters or brothers were tortured using unspeakable means and brought in bags to wastelands never to be seen again,

and stinking bodies dumped alongside the streets became a normal view,

and names caught in curfews today belonged to dead people tomorrow,

and it was perfectly okay to be shot to death or captured when seen in groups-of-three discussions,

and opinions (like yours or mine) meant a grave danger to life or an end to life itself.

But perhaps, you already know this.

And just because you do not know the pain of waiting for a father who never comes back, or seeing a sister in a body bag brutally killed for reasons you do not know, or hearing about a friend who is now unable to speak, walk and/or hear because he/ she got tortured, does not mean you have the right to dictate individuals in these situations to move on. Had your grandparents been the one walking that street looking suspicious according to the judgement of the military, your family would have been a victim too.

But let's talk about his achivements, right?

Do you really know that he is a great soldier? His achievements as a "soldier" are heavily contested with circumstantial evidence as propaganda to boost his image.

Did he really build those bridges and dams? The money from the taxpayers of this country did! And even then, the economy flunked so bad we were called the 'sick man of Asia' while the Marcos family got richer.

What about the Green Revolution and a lot of food? It was good at the beginning but later it was exposed that it was all about accumulating the profit to the notable (and rich) few while the farmers who supplied the food became hungry and penniless.

Did he do great things for the Education sector? Absolutely no. He
passed on the Education Act of 1982 which stated that private schools can determine their own tuition fee rates as much as they feel like it. Before this, every school must coordinate with the government. After this, there was a 7000% increase in tuition rates.

The greatest legacy Marcos ever left us is the astounding amount of debt every Filipino, even those who are unborn, have to pay until 2025. We are all victims of the Martial Law because of the neoliberal policies that he implemented during his term.

As a Marcos fan, you have crossed the line when you chose to side with a dictator, murderer, plunderer over a fellow struggling Filipino that could have been you.

References:

Marcos' alleged accomplishments:

http://amazingpilipinas.blogspot.com.tr/…/president-ferdina…

https://rommelsibay.wordpress.com/iv-marcos-deserted-achie…/

https://michaelborja.wordpress.com/…/more-marcos-accomplis…/

http://www.businessmirror.com.ph/marcoss-unmatched-legacy-…/

Marcos' wealth:

https://www.theguardian.com/…/10bn-dollar-question-marcos-m…

http://www.rappler.com/…/123664-recovering-marcos-ill-gotte…

http://cnnphilippines.com/…/timeline-marcos-ill-gotten-weal…

https://anywhereiwander.wordpress.com/…/imee-marcos-in-lon…/

http://says.com/…/10-facts-you-might-not-know-about-sandro-…

Our Debt because of Marcos:

http://www.gmanetwork.com/…/taxpayers-to-shoulder-marcos-de…

http://www.tandfonline.com/d…/pdf/10.1080/00472339180000171…

Human Rights Violations:

http://www.rappler.com/…/121365-torture-martial-law-marcos-…

http://www.academia.edu/…/TORTYUR_Human_Rights_Violations_D…

http://www.manilatimes.net/3257-fact-checking-the-marcos…/…/

http://www.filipiknow.net/lesser-known-martial-law-photos/

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/…/75730-claims-of-rights-viola…

http://www.thestar.com.my/…/dark-days-of-martial-law-victi…/

http://www.rappler.com/…/im…/106827-martial-law-stories-hear

http://www.pacifiqa.com/…/never-again-six-martial-law-stor…/

Fact-checking:

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/…/marcos-deception-seeks-to-ev…

http://www.hotmanila.ph/…/tyranny…/5-pernicious-marcos-myths -- not entirely sure if credible

http://www.philstar.com/…/file-no.-60-debunking-marcos-war-…

http://www.philstar.com/…/numbers-what-happened-during-mart…
http://www.chanrobles.com/bataspambansabilang232.htm

Economy under Marcos:

https://web.stanford.edu/group/sjeaa/journal3/geasia2.pdf

http://www.rappler.com/…/124682-marcos-economy-golden-age-p…

http://www.bworldonline.com/content.php

http://ibon.org/2016/…/anyare-economic-decline-since-marcos/

http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article3651

http://www.rappler.com/thou…/123773-marcos-economic-disaster
Londoner at heart

 


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