Living In The Philippines Forum

Itís Your Money => Building in the Philippines => Topic started by: JD on March 06, 2015, 11:56:31 AM

Title: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: JD on March 06, 2015, 11:56:31 AM
We're being quoted a price for installation of a pressure tank and pump with our house construction n Davao. Water is supplied via HDPE pipe from the meter a short way down the road. As far as I can gauge the use from being present when the single tap is used by the crew currently building our perimeter wall, the pressure seems good in the afternoon but low in the morning. This is the same with our rental house in a nearby subdivision.

I have no experience with water tanks and pumps, only some experience with dry fire sprinkler systems that use air compressors to keep the pipes pressurized. With those systems, the compressor may turn on anywhere from a couple of times a day to a couple of times an hour, depending on the airtightness of the system.

We're being told to get the tank and pump but to install a diverter to use during the times when pressure is good. Do this, we're told, to avoid an outrageous electric bill from the pump turning on time after time all day.

I'd really hate to find out that once the water is delivered to all the taps in our home, the city pressure stinks and have to run the pump all day. Alternately, does anyone know, are those centrifugal pumps really that expensive to run?

Thanks for any help.


JD
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: coleman2347 on March 06, 2015, 12:16:55 PM
I think you notice the drop in the morning because most are cooking breakfast, showering before work etc. 
I have the same problem here...I have a pressure pump and it cures the problem most of the time.  This is what I would do....when you install the pump make sure the tank you use is of the bladder type...they are more expensive but keep the pump from cycling on and off...also install a storage tank of a size that would be equivalent of one days water usage, say from 100 to 150 gal.  they usually come with a automatic shut off similar to the one in your toilet  (float shut off valve).  Install the pump to pump from the storage tank not the main water system.  Let street pressure fill the storage tank which it will when there is pressure and the tank is not full.  This will eliminate the pump coming on excessively.  I had a similar system in my old apartment and it worked great.  When I build my permanent house later this year I will install a similar system.  Hope this helps some, Im sure others here have had the same problem and will chime in...
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: M.C.A. on March 06, 2015, 04:43:31 PM
We're being quoted a price for installation of a pressure tank and pump with our house construction n Davao. Water is supplied via HDPE pipe from the meter a short way down the road. As far as I can gauge the use from being present when the single tap is used by the crew currently building our perimeter wall, the pressure seems good in the afternoon but low in the morning. This is the same with our rental house in a nearby subdivision.

I have no experience with water tanks and pumps, only some experience with dry fire sprinkler systems that use air compressors to keep the pipes pressurized. With those systems, the compressor may turn on anywhere from a couple of times a day to a couple of times an hour, depending on the airtightness of the system.

We're being told to get the tank and pump but to install a diverter to use during the times when pressure is good. Do this, we're told, to avoid an outrageous electric bill from the pump turning on time after time all day.

I'd really hate to find out that once the water is delivered to all the taps in our home, the city pressure stinks and have to run the pump all day. Alternately, does anyone know, are those centrifugal pumps really that expensive to run?

Thanks for any help.


JD

The pump electrical cost isn't that bad, I don't run any city water to my house it's all from a water well and I also have a manual water pump house out back.  I dealt with horrible water pressure and no water pressure back in the middle 80's Subic bay and when the water did work it initially came out green. 

Family of 5 and I frequently water some herbs and plants.  I have one dirty kitchen and two full sized kitchens, 3 bathrooms, haven't used the Aircon much if at all and with the side by side fridge and Induction stove, dish washer my bill comes up to 4,000 peso's per month, add AC in the evening hours 4-5 hrs per night and the bill jumps from 5,000 -6000 peso's.      :o
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: Frosty on March 07, 2015, 10:45:18 PM
Coleman  set up is the way to go.
Also I see alot of tanks up on a towers, they use the pump to fill the tank then the tank drains into the house. you only gain about 2psi for every 10 feet of hight.
keep the tank on the ground and set the pump up after the storage tank to pressure up the house.
If there is good pressure during different times of the day you could put a tee in the incoming line to the tank and mybe use this for anything outside, it could be used to get water if you have no power to the pump.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: JD on March 10, 2015, 09:21:21 PM
Thanks, guys. It wasn't drawn in on the initial proposal but we got the blueprints from the architect and the storage tank was shown with the bladder tank and pump.

Now what I'm troubled by is the Rainwater Catchment System that seems to be required by law here in Davao on new construction. Or rather, making economical use of the water. We need 6 tanks for our roof and while I'm a fan of using "free" water, I wasn't anticipating having to save every drop that fell on my roof like this. I guess I'm looking at another pump to ramp up the pressure for gardening and cleaning purposes.

It keeps going, doesn't it?  :)



JD
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: BudM on March 10, 2015, 10:56:05 PM
I have a tank, which when check the dimensions, I think comes out to about 400 gallons, that I was going to have removed.  After a year and finding out that the pressure does get low at certain times, I have changed my mind and am going with the main to tank to house route permanently.  Sometimes the pressure on the second floor gets a little low even though the tank is higher so I have been thinking about getting a pressure pump.  Then again, I do not have to take a shower any certain time of day as long as I don't stink too bad.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: cvgtpc1 on March 10, 2015, 11:15:55 PM
Now what I'm troubled by is the Rainwater Catchment System that seems to be required by law here in Davao on new construction. Or rather, making economical use of the water. We need 6 tanks for our roof and while I'm a fan of using "free" water, I wasn't anticipating having to save every drop that fell on my roof like this. I guess I'm looking at another pump to ramp up the pressure for gardening and cleaning purposes.

It keeps going, doesn't it?  :)

So much for the Philippines being some lawless place where anything goes, at least in your case!  lol
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: hitekcountry on March 11, 2015, 05:05:19 AM
I guess I have way too much time on my hands. I drew up what Coleman2347 is describing; sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words.

Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: JD on March 11, 2015, 12:45:57 PM
That's really cool, hitek. We'll have to add the pump bypass to the plans, I think. I'm still waiting on the PDF files of the blueprints to study a bit more. We had a lot of questions and were running around with the plans so I didn't get much time to eyeball them before we had to give the copy back for the city to stamp.

I know the architect is calling for an 1800 liter/475 gallon storage tank. I guess with the way they don't serve much notice when the water is shut off for service, a bigger tank is better.


JD
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: coleman2347 on March 11, 2015, 02:33:06 PM
I guess I have way too much time on my hands. I drew up what Coleman2347 is describing; sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words.



thats excellent
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: Frosty on March 14, 2015, 08:26:13 AM
I guess I have way too much time on my hands. I drew up what Coleman2347 is describing; sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words.

 Looks good. You might add at least 2 valves, 1 on the outlet on the tank and 1 on the supply line from the street. that way you can shut them down if you need to make any repairs.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: hitekcountry on March 14, 2015, 10:20:53 AM
I guess I have way too much time on my hands. I drew up what Coleman2347 is describing; sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words.

 Looks good. You might add at least 2 valves, 1 on the outlet on the tank and 1 on the supply line from the street. that way you can shut them down if you need to make any repairs.

Actually I had done that, I just hadn't got around to posting it.

Plus I added arrows to show the different paths the water would follow in the different conditions.

A -- is the path supplying the house when the "street" pressure is adequate. Nothing is moving in line B and the pressure pump is OFF
B -- is the path supplying the house when the street pressure is too low and the pump is running supplying water from the storage tank. The "House Pressure now higher than the street pressure cannot flow back through line A because of the one way valve in line A.

C -- is the path the water from the street will follow to refill the storage tank.


 
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: coleman2347 on March 15, 2015, 10:31:25 AM
I guess I have way too much time on my hands. I drew up what Coleman2347 is describing; sometimes a picture is worth a 1000 words.

 Looks good. You might add at least 2 valves, 1 on the outlet on the tank and 1 on the supply line from the street. that way you can shut them down if you need to make any repairs.

Actually I had done that, I just hadn't got around to posting it.

Plus I added arrows to show the different paths the water would follow in the different conditions.

A -- is the path supplying the house when the "street" pressure is adequate. Nothing is moving in line B and the pressure pump is OFF
B -- is the path supplying the house when the street pressure is too low and the pump is running supplying water from the storage tank. The "House Pressure now higher than the street pressure cannot flow back through line A because of the one way valve in line A.

C -- is the path the water from the street will follow to refill the storage tank.


 

Thats exactly what I am doing, the only exception will be a valved suction line from the deep well (if I can get a good deep well) to give me a dual option with the water source.  I had the same here (my present house) but was pulling up too much sand...so I dont use it.  Hopefully in the new place I can cure that problem...
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: cvgtpc1 on March 15, 2015, 02:06:08 PM
Are there any companies one can get that will honestly do this work for someone who doesn't know better for what it should cost?  That's one of my big pet peeves of the PI, there has to be some professional companies there somewhere.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: JD on March 15, 2015, 05:15:30 PM
Are there any companies one can get that will honestly do this work for someone who doesn't know better for what it should cost?  That's one of my big pet peeves of the PI, there has to be some professional companies there somewhere.

I would think that a competent plumber would be able to do this. Finding a real plumber will still be a challenge, though.


JD
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: cogon88 on March 15, 2015, 06:54:34 PM
Well your first challenge is to find a competent plumber

The second is to find fittings that hold pressure do not use plastic as the just thread the plastic pipe no plastic threaded insets here for black pipe if you use blue plastic the glue is no good

If you buy steel pipe fittings buy from the same supplier and check that all fittings screw together before you purchase them. I  have bought 1/2 inch steel fittings that will not thread into another suppliers 1/2 inch steel fittings different pipe suppliers

Let the games begin
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: hitekcountry on March 16, 2015, 02:16:12 AM
What are the options for plumbing/water pipe in the Philippines?

What Iím accustomed to using in the US is both PVC and Copper. Are these available there in the Philippines?

Both PVC and Copper can handle the pressure that would be common in a house. I should qualify that statement-- SCH 80 PVC and L and M Copper are pressure rated above any pressure you would find in house water plumbing.

There are other types of plastic pipe that you would NOT want to use for water under pressure.

Galvanized steel pipe is another option here (US) but I havenít used it in over 30 years.

There are other newer options as in PEX but I have no experience with any of those.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: fred on March 16, 2015, 05:33:19 AM
This is what we use in our buildings.. Recommended!

http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html (http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html)
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: hitekcountry on March 16, 2015, 06:28:43 AM
This is what we use in our buildings.. Recommended!

[url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url] ([url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url])


Fred

"Recommended"

What other options are there? What is most "standard"?

Thanks
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: cvgtpc1 on March 16, 2015, 06:52:01 AM
This is what we use in our buildings.. Recommended!

[url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url] ([url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url])


What we have in the house in Samar from the city line.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: coleman2347 on March 16, 2015, 11:01:35 AM
This is what we use in our buildings.. Recommended!

[url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url] ([url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url])


Fred

"Recommended"

What other options are there? What is most "standard"?

Thanks


Its the same stuff I use, If you glue it properly it works great...the secret is to make sure the end of the pipe is clean before you glue...I use either acetone or alcohol before I glue...so far "knock on wood" I have not had a joint failure yet...
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: fred on March 17, 2015, 06:17:12 AM
This is what we use in our buildings.. Recommended!

[url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url] ([url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url])


Fred

"Recommended"

What other options are there? What is most "standard"?

Thanks


What we have found over the years is that there is no standard sizes here!! If you buy a brand of water pipe,you pretty much have to stick with it forever as the wall thicknesses and diameters are all different.. When you compare Mouldex to cheaper brands of pipe there really is no comparison.. Literally double the wall thickness and a larger pipe in some cases.. This is just the same with waste pipe.. Some of the Chinese brands are nearly an inch unders size(wastepipe).
Next time you visit a good hardware..See for yourself.. Mouldex is the most expensive and the best IMO but dont forget if you choose that brand,never think that you will ever be able to buy different brand fittings that are compatible..
We have never had a problem with glued fittings that are under pressure encased in cement.. Once or twice we have had the odd failure near high pressure areas (not cement encased).. Mouldex have clean (for S blue PVC glue) and threaded fittings (just need PTFE tape on the thread). We try to use threaded fitting where possible near pumps and pressure tanks.
These days we ONLY use good quality nylon or plastic faucets or occassionally solid brass as even the expensive "stainless" or other alloy taps eventually corrode.. The brand we use is Watertek.
Anything like ball valves or water level switch floats..Only use expensive brand plastics or real brass.. Dont buy any stainless as its usually garbage and will only cause you headaches in the near future.
You can even buy modern pressure tanks that will not corrode as they are made from some type of fancy nylon..Again they are double the price of stainless tanks,but well worth the extra cost.. I think they are better than metal tanks with internal bladder.
The Philippines has some of the largest copper mines in the world..Not only cant you find copper water pipe,you will definitely never find a plummer that can fit it!! So its a non option.
G.I pipe used to be standard here till the 90`s and is still widely available.. I dont trust it these days as it probably comes from China and will probably erode eventually especially on the threaded joints..
Pays your money..Takes your choice.
Choose wisely!
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: fred on March 17, 2015, 06:18:14 AM
x2
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: fred on March 17, 2015, 06:25:36 AM
This is what we use in our buildings.. Recommended!

[url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url] ([url]http://mpi.moldex.com.ph/products_MoldexBlue.html[/url])


Fred

"Recommended"

Our plumber does the same but roughs up the surfaces with sand paper before gluing..

What other options are there? What is most "standard"?

Thanks


Its the same stuff I use, If you glue it properly it works great...the secret is to make sure the end of the pipe is clean before you glue...I use either acetone or alcohol before I glue...so far "knock on wood" I have not had a joint failure yet...


Our plumber does the same but also roughs up the surfaces with sand paper before gluing.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: hitekcountry on March 17, 2015, 03:21:17 PM

What we have found over the years is that there is no standard sizes here!! If you buy a brand of water pipe,you pretty much have to stick with it forever as the wall thicknesses and diameters are all different.. When you compare Mouldex to cheaper brands of pipe there really is no comparison.. Literally double the wall thickness and a larger pipe in some cases.. This is just the same with waste pipe.. Some of the Chinese brands are nearly an inch unders size(wastepipe).
Next time you visit a good hardware..See for yourself.. Mouldex is the most expensive and the best IMO but dont forget if you choose that brand,never think that you will ever be able to buy different brand fittings that are compatible..
We have never had a problem with glued fittings that are under pressure encased in cement.. Once or twice we have had the odd failure near high pressure areas (not cement encased).. Mouldex have clean (for S blue PVC glue) and threaded fittings (just need PTFE tape on the thread). We try to use threaded fitting where possible near pumps and pressure tanks.
These days we ONLY use good quality nylon or plastic faucets or occassionally solid brass as even the expensive "stainless" or other alloy taps eventually corrode.. The brand we use is Watertek.
Anything like ball valves or water level switch floats..Only use expensive brand plastics or real brass.. Dont buy any stainless as its usually garbage and will only cause you headaches in the near future.
You can even buy modern pressure tanks that will not corrode as they are made from some type of fancy nylon..Again they are double the price of stainless tanks,but well worth the extra cost.. I think they are better than metal tanks with internal bladder.
The Philippines has some of the largest copper mines in the world..Not only cant you find copper water pipe,you will definitely never find a plummer that can fit it!! So its a non option.
G.I pipe used to be standard here till the 90`s and is still widely available.. I dont trust it these days as it probably comes from China and will probably erode eventually especially on the threaded joints..
Pays your money..Takes your choice.
Choose wisely!

Very useful information, knowing that without having to learn "the hard way" can save someone a lot of pain.

  Thanks
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: BudM on March 17, 2015, 10:38:15 PM


Very useful information, knowing that without having to learn "the hard way" can save someone a lot of pain.

  Thanks

Yeah, from now on I am making sure if I get any PVC, it is always Mouldex.  The other day I was fixing something up and didn't realize the problem with fitting and I wound up with an elbow that won't fit on the pipe.  A lot of this other stuff I was not aware of either.  Thanks you guys.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: fred on March 17, 2015, 11:10:35 PM
Slightly more complicated,sorry I forgot to mention..
There are 2 types/standards of Mouldex..Mouldex and Mouldex "extra"... Be sure to remember which you buy as both are slightly different size wall and diameters with different size fittings!!
we always buy Mouldex Extra BTW.
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: JD on March 18, 2015, 11:32:31 PM
If you venture to Citihardware or Wilcon or one of the more well-stocked hardware stores, you can see the pipe side-by-side. There is a huge difference between them.

Just to add them to the mix, there is a Philippines pipe maker named Atlanta that seems to have good, thick-walled stuff.

We plan to use the best we can afford for hidden runs of sanitary and storm water and the thinner stuff for any downspout or exposed stuff that we can replace easily.

After living here in this rental and experiencing a nasty leak somewhere under the slab (the meter spins like a pinwheel when the valve is turned on but we can't tell where the water is going), we specifically told the architect that we wanted little to no runs within the slab of the new house.

We've determined that we can use HDPE pipe to bring the water from the city connection to the the house and also use it to go around the house to service our hose bibs and minimize the length of the runs to our bath rooms. It's flexible enough to make long, graceful bends and steady in the trench.

We're using PPR (or PP or RPP) Polypropylene Pipe Random for the short runs within the slab that can't be avoided and for the storage/pump setup. It requires a special heated joint which is a drawback but we think it will work well for hidden piping and for piping exposed to sun and whatnot outside. It is supposed to leach Chemical Nasties at a lower rate than PVC.


JD
Title: Re: Pressure tanks, water pumps and thou.
Post by: coleman2347 on March 19, 2015, 01:53:21 AM
Ive got an idea, mostly from all the repairs Ive had to do to this house, there will be no plumbing or electric wiring where it can not be gotten to easily.  I originally had the idea from and old house I lived in in Florida where all the plumbing circled the house and came through the wall everywhere you needed a point of use. 

The house we build this year will be on pilings raised over a concrete slab...all the wiring and plumbing will be routed around the sills and crossbeams under the house, allowing access without any problem...in the house all of it will be surface mounted with decorative covers, probably sounds a little commercial but should eliminate a lot of problems later.  As many have said in this thread all plumbing will be thick wall, and all the wiring will be at least a gauge over what is required.