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Author Topic: Solar Panels.  (Read 51173 times)

Offline Art, just a re(tired) Fil-Am

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #75 on: July 02, 2014, 03:34:33 PM »
This topic has been discussed here quite extensively! If solar panels were inexpensive and without a lot of government restrictions/regulations and with reputable suppliers/installers available everywhere, there would be a lot of solar panel arrays in the Philippines, but I haven't seen any in our area ever since living here for the past 17 years and probably never will in my lifetime, unless I have a solar company install one here in our area, but at what cost and as to recover the total expense in my lifetime before my surviving spouse sees any savings in her monthly electric bill after I'm long gone! And will she be able to afford the maintenance costs in an event of a breakdown? ::) :o   
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 04:11:55 PM by Art, "Just a re(tired) Fil-Am" »
"Life is what we all make it to be"!
"It's always a matter of money"!
"Do on to others as they would do on to You, but do it first"!
"Different strokes for different folks"!
"Que Sera Sera"!

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2014, 12:59:49 PM »
Hi Art, ( et al )
I know that i have been banging on about this for a while, but really, the "return on investment" or "pay back period" or whatever you want to call it, is in reality, less than 7 years.
Solar panels are warranted for 25 years.
Inverters normally about 10 years. ( but should last much much longer )

You have to look at "what the power would have cost " as the driving factor.
Excess power that is "Fed back" into the grid must also be factored in.  ( about PHP 8 / kWh ? )

If your power bill is "normally"  PHP 10,000 per month ( which some posters have mentioned ), with a suitably sized system that covers this use, you will "save" PHP 10,000 per month, which means that your solar PV system is "giving you" PHP 120,000 of power per year.
Now, if your system cost PHP 500,000, it will have "paid" for itself in less than 5 years.
Now, for at least the next 5 years, you will have "free" power. ( and an extra PHP120,000 in your pocket )  20 years would be the "normal" expectation.

In reality, every year the savings will be more than last year, because to price of power will ALWAYS increase, and you no longer have to buy power ! So the "Pay Back" time will actually be less.

If the inverter happens to fail after 10 years, they are about 30% of the system cost, so will only need a couple of years worth to pay for itself.
Panels have a 25 year warranty.

There is also ZERO maintenance. ( because there are no batteries or moving parts at all. )
Normal rainfall will wash any dust and grime off the panels as they have a "hydro-phobic" coating on the glass.

SM Prime have just installed a 1,500 kW system  on the SM City North Edsa Mall !! Brilliant !!
http://www.philstar.com/business/2014/06/26/1338931/sm-prime-building-largest-comml-solar-rooftop

I will definitely be bringing up a solar PV system ( and a 6kva "pure sine wave" diesel generator )  when I eventually move to the Philippines. It is a "no brainer"  !!


Offline FMSINC

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2014, 03:50:06 PM »
I really do not understand your math if you power bill is 10,000 per month thats for 24 Hours of usage

With your solar panel if you are lucky it may produce power for 5-7 hours a day so if its size is 8Kw you will have 2-3 hours at 8 kw production depending on the time of year. So you will still need grid connection for at least 17 hours a day

The rest of the daylight hours it produces power output on a graduated bell curve from sun up to peak time period to sun down and thats if there are no clouds in the sky.

The New 25 Mw Solar plant just installed in our area is were I'm getting the daily performance numbers from.

So the reduction of your power bill if your average consumption per hour is  8KW of day was equal would only be roughly around 1/4 of the 10,000 piso's in savings and thats if you lived in the perfect world.

In our area Region 6 you are unable to sell power back to the grid or co-op so please advise what power company here is offering to by your 8Kw of power and what is the minimum requirement of Kilowatts to avail of the said program

Good idea to bring the genset

I wish the solar performed better but the numbers make for a long ROI I have looked at solar many times but just can not see the cost effectiveness of it 

My power bill by the way averages around 20,000 piso's now for 2 houses and warehouse and security lights. 14.40 per KW in Capiz

We disconnected our rice mill from the grid as we were paying in excess of 2 to 3 Million per month.

The cost of power 13 months ago was 25.50KW hour on prime metering any transformer over 225KVA

I have been running genset for the last 13 months for the rice mill

If your transformer is 225KVA or lower your rate here 14.40 KW this is called a secondary metering

By running a genset we are down to around 700,000 for fuel each month with no brown outs cost for Diesel and maintenance is right at 8 piso KW produced

All power is supplied to house etc from genset when the mill is running

By the way welcome to the Philippines

Best Regards

Tom

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #78 on: July 04, 2014, 08:43:18 AM »
Hi Tom , thanks for the reply. ( sorry in advance to the long post  :-[ )
This solar stuff can be quite confusing !

I hear what you are saying about generation times and night time etc etc.

It really is all about averages, and sizing the system to meet your individual requirements.
If the system is sized correctly, you should be able to reduce your NET power bill to zero.

You really need to read your power meter, say at 8am and then again at 5 pm.
take these readings every day for at least a month.
Enter the data into a spreadsheet, and graph you power usage.
This will really help when it comes time to design your system ( or even work out if it is viable )

Ideally.....
Consume MOST/ALL of your power during generation hours ( day light )
Consume ( buy ) the minimum amount during the night.

Here is a link to my system. ( yesterday,  03/07/2014 )
Very useful site with heaps of info.

http://pvoutput.org/intraday.jsp?id=2894&sid=2217&dt=20140702&gs=0&m=1

My 5.7kW system averages 25kWh per day, summer winter rain sun.... this is over the last 3 years.
My best days are around the 41 kWh mark, worst has been as low as 2 kWh  :'(

My house uses about 20kWh ( average ) per day.
So i generate more than I use, and I feed the excess into the grid.
I get paid for this excess. ( here in Australia )

This legislation was passed a couple of years ago in the Philippines.
"RULES ENABLING THE NET-METERING PROGRAM FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY
Pursuant to Section 10, Chapter III of Republic Act No. 9513, otherwise known as the Renewable Act of 2008, and Section 7, Rule 2, Part II of its Implementing Rules and Regulations (IRR), the Energy Regulatory Commission, in consultation with the National Renewable Energy Board and the electric power industry participants, hereby adopt and promulgate these Rules Enabling the Net-Metering Program for Renewable Energy."

Meralco currently pay about PHP 5.6  per kWh fed back into the grid, from grid connect solar PV. But they are VERY coy about it !
Most of Meralco's customer support staff do not know anything about it  :o


There are a couple of ways of metering this.

You have 2 meters.
One measures what you buy (consume ) from the grid. This number of kWh's is then multiplied by the XXX / kWh charge, and this is what you owe the power company.

The other meter measures how much power ( generated by solar ) is fed back into the grid. This number of xxx / kWh's is then multiplied by the kWh FIT, and this is what the power company pays you.

If you use more kWh than you feed back, you will pay the difference.

If you feed back more kWh than you consume, the power company pays you ( or credited your account )

If you have one of those "spinning disc" meters, it should be even simpler.
Any excess power that is not used by the house, is fed back into the grid, and spins the meter backwards, which reduces the kWh used "
reading".
This has the effect of "storing" excess power in the grid ( like a battery) which is available for later use.

So if you fed back , say, 10kWh into the grid during the day (  meter spins backwards by 10 units ), that 10 Kwh is "available" to consume ( meter spins forwards by 10 units ) when your solar system is not generating enough power to cover your house needs.
The net effect is that your meter has registered ZERO which mean no charge for that 10 kWh that you used!

Really does depend upon what the deal is with YOUR power company. Everyones situation is differnet.
There have been laws passed that allow this to happen but grid connect solar PV is very much in its infancy in the Philippines at the moment.
We are a lot further advanced here in Australia.

Whatever, what I DO know, from MY real world experience, is that it works for ME.
In MY situation, i have not paid even 1 cent for the power ( including supply charges etc ) to my house since my solar was installed.
Since my solar was installed, my power company has given me nearly $5000 for the excess power that I have fed back into the grid.

These two facts will ensure that my $19,000 dollar investment in solar is "repaid" ( thru both savings and credits ) in less than 6 years.
My system "should" keep providing all of my power needs for at least the next 20 years.  What is THAT going to be worth ??
It has also added "value" to my house. ( much like adding a patio, garage or swimming pool would )
 
Not really sure if I am explaining it well enough for others to understand..... probably not....... so i might just shut up now !!
( pm me with your private email if you like. I have a few documents etc that I can send you )







Offline Art, just a re(tired) Fil-Am

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #79 on: July 04, 2014, 10:59:30 AM »
These two facts will ensure that my $19,000 dollar investment in solar is "repaid" ( thru both savings and credits ) in less than 6 years.
My system "should" keep providing all of my power needs for at least the next 20 years
Your solar investment in Australia maybe $19,000, but what would it really cost here in the Philippines? Double that maybe? Repaid in how many year? Most of us old retirees probably won't see or experience the savings in our lifetime since we would still probably be paying for it if the money was borrowed! Not too many retired folks here in the Philippines have that kind of money to invest and hope for a return on their investment during the remainder of their lifetime!
Solar energy will be more suitable and practical for the younger generation who can afford it!
In this day and age of the high cost of technical inventions, most retired oldtimers on a fixed income and set in their ways mostly do not have that kind of money laying around to invest on anything! Some retirees will just have to bite the bullet and do without with all of the modern western conveniences in order to live or just survive within their means!     
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:39:04 PM by Art, "Just a re(tired) Fil-Am" »
"Life is what we all make it to be"!
"It's always a matter of money"!
"Do on to others as they would do on to You, but do it first"!
"Different strokes for different folks"!
"Que Sera Sera"!

Offline FMSINC

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #80 on: July 04, 2014, 11:40:46 AM »
The problem is Leinster is there is no deal available to sell excess power to the Co-Op or Grid in my area

They may have a law on the books but out here in the provinces Non-Merelco they will not allow you to feed into Co-op Lines and the grid is a no go unless you produce 1Mw or more and it requires a 69,000 volt line connection to a NGCP transmission line

So with the grid sales out of the equation you will only be reducing your own bill for by 5-7 hours a day.

My meter shows  load in real time 5KW an hour during the day at night with air and lights it goes to 9Kw

Have a quote for a 15KW system for $25,000 USD  From china complete about half the cost as quoted locally

Wish this was Australia but its the RP

Tom

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #81 on: July 04, 2014, 11:44:36 AM »
G'Day Art,
BTW, just out of curiosity, roughly what is your monthly power consumption ( kWh ) and electric bill ?
( actual  kWh consumption is listed on your bill )


That $19,000 system cost was 3 years ago.
Same system now costs about $8000 ( installed )
Same size but cheaper gear costs about $5000 ( installed )
I dare say they would be even cheaper "State Side"..... look into it.

There is no "magic" in the installation, really basic stuff.
Any reasonably competent sparky will find it very easy.

When you look at the ongoing (ever increasing) costs of power, and work out how much you will spend year on year, the numbers do get quite frightening !

It is probably a very worthy exercise for all who have even the slightest care about their financial circumstance, to READ YOUR POWER METER.......regularly.......twice a day  ( 8am and 5pm ) for a month or two. Spreadsheet and analyze the data...... you might be amazed !
You will very quickly learn exactly how much power you are using and more importantly WHEN.
This is the information that you need when doing due diligence on the cost/benefit of solar PV.

Get to know WHAT your power bills are telling you.

Just complaining that this months power cost PHP 8,967  is silly and  means absolutely NOTHING. You need to know HOW MUCH power you have used !

Learn how to use your A/C effectively ( thermostat setting etc )
See if you can shade that hot side of your house with some nice shrubs or trees.
See if you can let the cool night time breeze into the house. ( insect screens on the windows )

As i said before, when i finally move up there, i will be bringing a solar PV system and generator with me.
I will avail the BB tax free provision for personal stuff etc and fight Meralco tooth and nail to grid connect it. ( it is my right you know )

The Philippine government has passed laws to allow this, and so I will !

Eventually, when battery storage becomes economically viable ( maybe only 2 or 3 years away ), I will disconnect entirely from the grid and become self sufficient.

I am very happy to help all with any advice I can give, and just as a disclaimer, I have NO affiliation with any Solar / electric company / business at all. I am mearly a very keen enthusiast  8)

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #82 on: July 04, 2014, 12:04:54 PM »
The problem is Leinster is there is no deal available to sell excess power to the Co-Op or Grid in my area
My meter shows  load in real time 5KW an hour during the day at night with air and lights it goes to 9Kw
Have a quote for a 15KW system for $25,000 USD  From china complete about half the cost as quoted locally
Wish this was Australia but its the RP
Tom

Hi Tom, looks like it is hard to do in the Philippines.....
And it looks like you draw a fair amount of power !
That quote looks about right, maybe a tad high, but it would be fine for good quality gear.

A 15kW system will more than supply your daily needs, but without being able to feed your excess back into the grid, it would be a waste.

Your ONLY way of this size working, is if you have one of those "spinning disc" meters, and you do not tell your power company that you are connecting to the grid. ( they probably wouldn't know anyway )
This way, your excess power spins the meter backwards, and then you "redraw" that excess exported power at night.

OR, you find a way to use all of your generated power ( so that you do not have to buy it ) like, just do all your water pumping during the day. Water heating during the day. etc whatever you would normally buy power to do, do that while the sun is shining.

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #83 on: July 04, 2014, 12:13:21 PM »

Offline FMSINC

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #84 on: July 04, 2014, 06:05:32 PM »
Good idea but if they are working on the line and there is an illegal hook feeding power to the grid and it kills a line man them I go to prison for a few hundred years not a good idea I think

Tom

Offline Gray Wolf

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #85 on: July 04, 2014, 11:14:17 PM »
A good working knowledge of the subject would be very helpful for anyone seriously interested in a home system.   

Solar Electric Basics  -  PV-Direct, Off-Grid, Grid-Tied
http://www.homepower.com/articles/solar-electricity/basics/what-solar-electricity

The site also has info on solar water heating, wind power and microhydro power systems. 

Louisville, KY USA - Bagong Silang, Caloocan City, PH

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #86 on: July 05, 2014, 05:30:25 AM »
Good idea but if they are working on the line and there is an illegal hook feeding power to the grid and it kills a line man them I go to prison for a few hundred years not a good idea I think
Tom


Negative Tom (100 points for thinking though  :)  )
Grid tie interters ( at least certified good quality ones ) have what is called "anti-islanding" feature.
What this means is that the inverter is constantly monitoring the quality ( voltage frequency, phase, power factor ) of the mains (grid ) supply, and if ANY of these parameters falls outside of the preset tollerances, then the inverter shuts down.
The inverter continues to monitor the grid, and when the supply comes back to tollerance, the inverter will start up again.

The power company will not let you connect anything else.

This is one of the reasons why you NEVER connect a generator to your house without isolating it from the grid first.
Specific, rated "Change Over" switches are available for this very task.

There are some very fancy systems available ( German brand SMA ) that can combine grid tie solar with battery storage with generator input as well that will automatically disconnect from the grid when required.

http://www.sma-australia.com.au/en_AU/products.html

Also, very good advice from GW......
If you are even a little bit interesed in saving a heap of money on utilities, then get reading.......... all it costs you is your time.

Here is another link if you have some spare hours (days) to read thru. Generally refers to systems in Australia, but there is a LOT of generic solar knowledge as well. ( both power and water ) 

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/143

This forum has heaps more to it than just solar....... spend some time...... it's cool  8)

As I have said before, I have no affiliation with any product or company.
I am just a very enthusiastic supporter of all things renewable  :)

Offline Frosty

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2014, 09:55:48 PM »
The idea behind solar is to reduce your power bill.
AC consumes the largest amount of elect.
$19000 spent to install something that might give you a pay back in 6 or 7 years, no grantees.
Why not spend the money or a small part of the $19000 on insulating your house?
I have nothing against solar it will work, but it's not the only way to reduce your power bill and like Art said most people don't have the $19000 to spend on a solar system but they might be able to come up with a few thousand to insulate their attic space

Offline coleman2347

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2014, 10:46:23 PM »
my power bill from leyco last month was 19000
The only thing worse than wanting to do it is not doing it

Offline Art, just a re(tired) Fil-Am

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Re: Solar Panels.
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2014, 11:22:02 PM »
Our electric bill from Meralco for July was P13,553
only because our 1HP A/C is on 24/7 in our bedroom!
Are we spoiled? You bet! We're not very frugal!
I know if we just turn off our A/C when not in our bedroom and
didn't use our electric stove, microwave oven, shower heaters and
or washer/dryer so often, we would probably cut our electric bill in half or more!
Yeah, insulating the attic and walls would certainly help, which will be my next  project wherever I get around to it!
Installation of a solar power system just isn't in our future plans or during the remainder of my
lifetime, because I do not want to leave my wife anything that she doesn't understand
or know how to operate/monitor and won't be able to afford to maintain after I'm long gone! ??? :o   
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 12:07:52 AM by Art, "Just a re(tired) Fil-Am" »
"Life is what we all make it to be"!
"It's always a matter of money"!
"Do on to others as they would do on to You, but do it first"!
"Different strokes for different folks"!
"Que Sera Sera"!