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Author Topic: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?  (Read 35792 times)

Offline Lee2

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Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« on: July 07, 2014, 11:11:25 PM »
I read this story "Cebu priest berates unwed mother, 17, during baptism" and I feel the priest did the correct thing if it will discourage others from following the same path.
http://tinyurl.com/lezhtb4
Quote
(Don't follow wrong deeds, allowing yourself to sleep with a man who is not your husband. Is that what the church has taught you? This child did not sin, but the man and the woman who slept together unwed are the ones who are living in sin. The child will bear the mistake. Hope you'll think that this is not just about being happy and amused because the child is here. Yes, this is grace, but conceived through sin. This was not done through...Were you married, Day? (Girl shakes head) Oh, see, is she a good Christian? Is this something you can be proud of, Day? That you have a child, but have no husband? This is shameful, Day. You should have covered yourself, because you are in church, shameful. Because you want this baptism even without a husband, you slept with a man who was not your husband. Do you hear me, Day? Aren't you ashamed? This is so shameless. And you (addresses crowd), are you going to follow what she did? Will you spread your legs for a man you barely know? That's why this is shameful. This child will live in grace because he is baptized. You, on the other hand, was baptized but you did not fulfill the promise of baptism. Hope this child will grow to follow his baptismal promise. You are crooked. I hope that some people will help you and enlighten you so your child will grow up following Christ's teachings, which cannot be said of you.)


I feel (YMMV) it is wrong in any culture to have children out of wedlock for many reasons but especially so in the Philippines which is such a religious culture, yet a number of young girls in our family and people we have met have had children out of wedlock and their families have not shunned them and some are in the provinces, so to me it now seems like it is accepted whereas in the past it would have meant disgrace. What has gone wrong in today's world to where in many families it is now accepted? What is your opinion, are the priest and I wrong?


:) Happily married since 1994 & live part of the year in Cebu and the rest in S. Florida.

Offline iamjames

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 02:22:32 AM »

[/quote]

..... people we have met have had children out of wedlock and their families have not shunned them .....
[/quote]

Are you serious Lee?  :o
That sounds medieval religious fanaticism to me. Why not stone people caught in adultery also!

The priest, during the Baptism, spoke like a selfish, bigoted tyrant and should be imprisoned for speaking that way to a young woman in public. He is a disgusting example of what goes wrong when you put religious power in the hands of a fool.

Offline Lee2

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 05:09:46 AM »
Are you serious Lee?  :o
That sounds medieval religious fanaticism to me. Why not stone people caught in adultery also!

The priest, during the Baptism, spoke like a selfish, bigoted tyrant and should be imprisoned for speaking that way to a young woman in public. He is a disgusting example of what goes wrong when you put religious power in the hands of a fool.

Yes James I am dead serious, it is becoming a major problem. Too many of those women end up unable to support those children. Many of those women have to turn to unsavory work in order to support the children because the fathers apparently often do not. Go into any of the bars and talk to the many women working in them and it is often the same old story over and over again. I have seen it in the US as well in poor neighborhoods leading to too many being on welfare and in a poor country like the Philippines it is now happening way too often.

So while the priest berating her in public might not have been the best thing for him to do, how many of those who witnessed it or heard about it might now think twice about doing the same thing.

:) Happily married since 1994 & live part of the year in Cebu and the rest in S. Florida.

Offline Leinster Lad

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 05:19:03 AM »
Easily accessible access to contraception and "family planning" eductaion in high school will solve a lot of the problems.

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church seems to have issues with this  :o

Might not stop the behaviour,  but sure as hell should slow down the birth rate of "unwanted" ( that is such a bad word....sorry )  children.

Offline mikbal

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 05:23:39 AM »
In my opinion if the priest wanted to chew her out, he should have done it in private,  In the Roman Catholic church, baptism is a sacrament with a specific liturgy. I dont believe it's the time or place for a counseling session. And I don't believe what he said will have any impact on young Filipinos at all.

Mike

Offline Gray Wolf

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2014, 05:53:05 AM »
Lee, I'm with you on this.  Condoms and birth control pills don't feed hungry children.  Family planning and contraception is no substitute for morals.  That's what is lacking in young people these days.  I fear much of it is learned by watching the US, which is rapidly becoming a cesspool of debauchery and depravity.
 
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Offline Killjoygreg

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2014, 05:55:05 AM »
Three of our nieces and one nephew have babies and all are unwed. Not the slightest bit of disapproval was demonstrated by the family. Indeed these babies seem to be loved and adored. So far, except for the nephew they are still with their partners.
It seems to me the average Filipino is shunning weddings, for whatever reason I have no idea. None of the younger people in our family attend church and I can only assume they not as religious as the parents or grandparents.
 
Now all they need to do is use contraception. Young girls appear to want to get pregnant.

Offline Shewmake

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2014, 08:20:38 AM »


Yes James I am dead serious, it is becoming a major problem. Too many of those women end up unable to support those children. Many of those women have to turn to unsavory work in order to support the children because the fathers apparently often do not. Go into any of the bars and talk to the many women working in them and it is often the same old story over and over again. I have seen it in the US as well in poor neighborhoods leading to too many being on welfare and in a poor country like the Philippines it is now happening way too often.

So while the priest berating her in public might not have been the best thing for him to do, how many of those who witnessed it or heard about it might now think twice about doing the same thing.

Interesting take Lee, but what you didn't address is the fact- the circumstances you describe don't take into account the guy. During my stay in our former village, it seemed a girl was getting pregnant out of wedlock every other month. Usually the couple would get married, but all too frequently, the boy ran off or simply refused because he didn't want the responsibility.

The real issue here as it is in other countries is teens are not being taught to take responsibilities for their actions. I am not going to preach about the rightness or wrongness because people will be people, and it's up the individual to control their urges. Guys will say anything to have sex, regardless of their respective ages. It's the stigma that society, attaches to the issue, and here, unfortunately, there is very little bad stigma anymore to having a child out of wedlock, as in many western countries. In fact, here it seems girls thinking having a baby is the greatest thing in the world- kind of like getting a new toy, but that wears off awfully quick.

For me, it's boils down to the young people taking responsibility for their action's in life. All too often they see no problem just running away from them, or foisting the results of their actions onto the backs of their families. 

As to the priest . . . well heck he is a priest, tied to his religious dogma, and I don't expect much else from him. What we tend to forget to be catholic, here, is like wearing clothes. Everyone wears them, but not everyone wears them well.
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Stephen

If you could kick the person in the pants responsible for most of your trouble, you wouldn't sit for a month. Theodore Roosevelt

Offline shortman

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2014, 09:34:55 AM »
Taking responsibility for your actions is the main factor, as i see it; being a man and from my point of view when i was a hot to trot youngster, if she did not put out, it was bye bye and then look for the one that did; Now most of you guys in the room here don,t seem to be willing to say what "dogs" we young men were. I know it takes two to tango and many of us were willing partners and if being knocked up was the result many of us denied or disappeared;.. so before cold watering "sex education" or" strict house rules" or even the dreaded abstinence, we all should not forget the baby who did not ask to come....whether acceptable or not.
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Offline iamjames

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2014, 10:35:15 AM »
Teens generally are confused people trying to establish their role in society. Rebels with rampant hormones might be one way to describe them. Their behaviour is directly dependant on the quality of parenting they experience. Apart from ignorance of parenting (worldwide) the problem in third world countries is the parents are desperate not to 'turn their children against them' simply because they know that one day they will depend on those children simply to survive. This leads to a tolerance of behaviour that should not be allowed. It is just an unfortunate fact. Having babies is not such a big deal to these people and family planning for financial and future education reasons does not enter the equation. The responsibility rests with schools who must introduce programmes teaching responsible adulthood and parenting and family planning. But of course the Catholic church holds sway over the schools so that cannot happen.

Do not blame the young people for the failures of parents and others in authority who simply ignore the core concerns of teenagers.

 Under the regulations for entry to Catholic Teacher Training colleges The Blessed Virgin Mary would not be allowed admittance because she was living with a man (betrothed - not married) and she had a baby out of wedlock. When I pointed this out to the Dean of the local college her response was - it was a different time and a different culture. My response was the Blessed Virgin was lucky that she was not born a Philippina.

The big fault lies with the perceived 'wise' leaders: the Catholic Church being the major culprit. These money grabbing parasites will demand money for all their religious services. (The greatest sin in the Catholic faith is Simony - SELLING religious favours - yet it is conveniently ignored. Remember the story about Jesus driving the traders out of the temple with a whip! ).

 The young people quite often cannot get married because they cannot afford the priests costs. They will have to pay 2000 pesos to get the priest to 'bless their house'. They have to pay the priest at every mass through the collections. Names are read out after major collections during the year and people are publicly embarrassed into giving. That poor girl who was publicly humiliated by the sanctimonious so called representative of God had paid to have her child baptised. If she had been from a wealthy family that lecture would never have occurred.

The role of a priests sermon is "a short exhortation on the scripture of the day". Unfortunately when an ignorant person is given a platform the power element and ego factor kick in and they blaze away with their personal opinions, biases and bigotry. This is not their remit.

My religion was traditionally Catholic. I trained for eight years as a monk in a religious order. I am speaking from some experience and learning on the matter. 

Offline coleman2347

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2014, 10:38:13 AM »
When I first arrived here I was amazed at the number of children with out fathers..the number of un-wed mothers.  Amazed might not be the correct word shocked might be better.  It seems sometimes that finding a child with two married parents is the exception instead of the rule.  As I sit here,  I have been going over who I know that live together that are actually married,  and so far out of the 20 or so couples that we know (couples in their 20's or 30's ) only two (and we are one of those) are actually married.
Money
I just had a long discussion with my wife about this post and one of the major things we came up with is the cost of being married.  The cost of a civil wedding is (and I am sure this varies ) is approx. 1500 by the time you do the paperwork and the cost of a church ( Catholic ) wedding the skies the limit.  Two of Malines classmates who have children are pretty close to us and have been trying to save the money to get married since I have known them.  The have jobs, work, are decent people but cant seem to find the money to pay for the wedding. 
Ignorance
This is as the brits say a sticky wicket,  Take a look at the level of education here, lets leave out the kids affected by being related to us.  I am only going to deal with what I know, mostly the area around Tacloban City.  I have no idea of Manila or Cebu. 
When I moved here I lived in an apartment in the San Jose area, similar houses/ apts. around me.  One block over (I later found out) started the squatter area.  This area was extensive, several miles across running several miles up and down the coast.  There were people that owned the land there but surrounded by those that did not and just built small houses on land they squatted on.  Most of the squatters either had menial jobs or no jobs and lived day to day. 
At anytime day or night herds of kids, any age could be found roaming the streets and neighborhoods.  No parent in sight.  Going to school was not a priority.  It would seem that parenting was not a priority also. 
Some nights I would go to a street-side bar I like for a Pilsen and just sit there watching people and traffic.  Many times I would see groups of kids roaming up and down the street, both boys and girls, and if you watched the actions of the kids it was obvious that sex was a priority objective, the ages of these kids seemed to be pre-teen or early teen. I am very sure that contraception was not on the agenda.  So lack of parenting, lack of any authority figure at school, the Catholic church's stand on contraception gives you wholesale sex which gives you wholesale babies, which starts the cycle all over again.  To be fair its not just here, I saw the exact same thing in the projects in the United States. 
Celebrity example
More than anyplace I have ever been, celebrities here are placed in an almost God like position of idolization.  That includes politicians and movie stars .  All you have to do is look, read about what is published about them and you can see the example they serve up.  Heck just look at Noy Noy's sister. Take time sometime to watch the soap opera's.  Yes in the US and other places they are popular, but not to the extent they are here..here they are like Gods, and what amazes me is the number of people here that think thats real life. 
Lack of hope for the future
Talk sometime to the people here, not people that are doing good with good jobs because they are in the minority, your pedi cab drivers, the guy that comes to your house to collect plastic, those kind of people.  Most have no plans for the future, most live day to day and are happy to have food for the day with the occasional beer.  Most think the only thing in life is to eat, have kids and die. Lacking anything else to do sex and drinking are a priority.  Its fun sometimes the only fun.
Culture
OK heres a test, find a Filipino guy that does not think its OK to bed any girl he can.  Its the same macho attitude that permeates most Latin American countries.  Its cultural in any country that was populated, ruled by the Spanish and Catholic Church.  BTW I am Roman Catholic but am aware of the problems with the Church as it is today. 
Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
No I dont think its acceptable, given the above I think its inevitable.
Given the lack of leadership, apathy, by almost everybody in charge what do you expect.
As for the Priest who scolded the 17 year old...obviously he missed the class on leadership, I spent 22 years in the Marine Corp. NEVER was (except for boot camp) I called out in front of the troops, NEVER did I call anybody out in front of the troops, an ass chewing should be done in private you accomplish nothing tearing down someone in front of people except creating a resentment that could last for a life time.
Yes Lee I tend to agree with the "you should be married" part.  But given my observations of the Philippines I think its about 100th on the list of things to fix first...Lee
The only thing worse than wanting to do it is not doing it

Offline iamjames

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2014, 10:43:12 AM »
Seems we were both typing frantically at the same time, Coleman, and we both agree on all points.

Offline coleman2347

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2014, 10:56:02 AM »
iamjames, seems like, and yes we usually agree, amazing, the Scots and the Irish agreeing...and like you I have a degree in Theology, however I picked mine up just because the subject fascinates me..as does history and political science..
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Offline FMSINC

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2014, 05:27:32 PM »
Looks like the Priest may need to become a tricycle driver / Tom /

Priest in unwed mum outburst faces sanctions
by AFP
July 8, 2014 (updated)
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A Philippine priest faces possible sanctions after his scathing condemnation of an unwed mother in church ignited a social media firestorm, his religious superiors said Tuesday.

Father Romeo Obach angrily scolded a young mother in church on Sunday as she held her newborn baby in her arms to be baptised, apparently unaware his comments were being videotaped.

“You should be ashamed of yourself for bringing your child to be baptised when you don’t even have a husband,” the priest is shown telling the visibly shaken young woman in a clip uploaded on YouTube which has since gone viral.

“You are shameless. You slept with a man who is not even your husband,” he alleged.

Turning to her relatives and friends, the priest asked: “Is she being a good Christian… will you spread your legs for a man you barely know?”

Both the priest and his religious order later issued separate public apologies and the order promised an investigation. The Philippines is a mainly Catholic nation.

“This priest is a hypocrite! You are not preaching the gospel of Christ!” one comment on YouTube read.

“Hey priest, you should follow the example of your pope,” another read, referring to the less judgemental attitude begun by Pope Francis.

“As a religious community we do not condone such an unacceptable act,” the order said in its statement, adding it would reach out to the family of the young woman, a parishioner in the central city of Cebu.

The Redemptorists’ media officer in Cebu, Father Alfonso Suico, told AFP Obach would likely be required to “take time for prayer and reflection and will not be allowed to celebrate sacraments publicly for a duration to be determined by our superiors”.

Obach said in a separate statement: “The words I said and the rude attitude that I showed before I performed the rite of baptism… was indeed unbecoming.”

“I am deeply sorry to the mother of the child, her relatives, the sponsors and the witnesses of the incident.”

The outburst took place a day after the head of the Philippines’ bishops called on the local clergy to listen more and condemn less on issues of abortion, divorce and contraception, in the latest sign of a liberal shift in the powerful institution.

Archbishop Socrates Villegas said a change of tone would be a fitting welcome for the pope, who is visiting the country next year.

Church leaders exert vast influence in the conservative Philippines, Asia’s Catholic bastion and the only state apart from the Vatican that still outlaws both divorce and terminations.


Offline iamjames

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Re: Unwed mothers, has it become acceptable?
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2014, 11:18:38 PM »
The redemptorists are historically notorious for their hellfire and brimstone rantings. I remember 50 years ago in Ireland when a parish would have a general 'retreat' they would bring in a redemptorist. These lunatics would have the whole parish scared out of their wits at the end of a week. I had thought that the fire and brimstone with the gruesome detail approach was long gone.