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Author Topic: Backup power for black/brownouts  (Read 749 times)

Offline htr44

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2020, 09:09:18 AM »
Thank you so much everyone! That is a lot more food for thought than I expected--and a lot to digest. You have raised the most pressing issue for the moment, one which doesn't apply directly to the power situation: they are way out in the provinces and no one will deliver anything in these corona virus times. It's amazing. Even for little things, Shopee, Lazada, Carousell all say can't ship there at the moment. So we're kind of stuck for a while. When things get back up and running, though, there are a lot of good suggestions. I will definitely go quality over price, and was thinking about Honda. I'll just have to check options. Everyone's input is genuinely appreciated.

Offline Hestecrefter

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2020, 11:05:52 PM »

Keep in mind anything off the main grid (gennies, windmills, cycleboy, fuel runouts...etc) is considered dirty power (spikes, total drops, etc) can damage some equipment or drop data.

Got to love the PI...sometimes living there is just like a never ending camping trip for some.

I meant to address that "dirty power" line before.  Simply not true that "anything" off the main grid is so unreliable. I am sure there's some, but it sure as heck does not have to be.

We have lived off grid for many years, with wind and solar power and diesel generator backup.  A well-designed off-grid system with quality chargers, inverters, etc., gives the cleanest, smoothest power obtainable.  No spikes, drops.  Not like grid power which can drop dead without notice, come surging back without notice.  In some places (like when I lived in the Phils) we were advised to use something called "surge protectors" to limit the damage caused by variable current supply.   We do not need or own such a device here.

Also, when I lived where "brownouts" were common (not blackouts like we see elsewhere at times), I was taught by an appliance repairman to turn off the refrigerator when the grid went down.  He said that he always did a good business selling and installing new compressors for refs and freezers.  He explained that these units have a piston mechanism that, if arrested at the top of its stroke due to power loss, then, when the current comes back, it is at the point of maximum compression and will have a hard time starting up from that position.  He said it needs time to settle back down to the bottom of its stroke, so it can start from that position.  He also said that the flickering off-and-on sometimes seen when grid power is restored can be hard on various types of equipment.  That is something unheard of with an off-grid system of the sort we use.  It never goes down, never spikes, surges or drops.  We have yet to replace any electric or electronic device here.  If what we have is "dirty power", then bring it on; give me excess of it!

Offline MotorSarge

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2020, 07:11:58 AM »
Hey Crafty Hest,

I call you that because your no dummy, no Ace but definitely a Jack!
Lol...I like your last sentence the best with no sarc.
As for dirty power I'm not stating it is unreliable...just more variations, surges in Hertz, and more drops than shore power. Yep surge protectors that's one I think which we all have left out of the last few info shares, a surge protector might save the recipient equipment  but not guarantee the linkup or continuity.
Most military field operations run off dirty power and for some very sensitive high hertz critical systems, if given the choice they would run off shore power if available & protected.
I have witnessed enough shutdowns & surges that throw equipment off line or cause damage, mostly due to operator ignorance, lack of service or bad fuel. In addition if someone is going to acquire a genny for backup power they need to learn how to properly use it, safely set it up, service it and prepare it for the down time. There is probably as much operator error as their is cheap backup genny problems out there. Keep in mind I'm mostly stating on backups not folks who use gennies daily.

Number one killer of backup Gennies are old fuel!!!
Most gasolines have a shelf life around 30 days dependent upon the environment they are stored.
Specifically Ethanol based brands are water magnets.
Maybe more costly but I prefer diesel type genny and the shelf life of the fuel can go around 90 days untreated.

Thanks for sharing and keep doing so,

/r/
MS

Offline David690

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2020, 01:20:38 PM »
Thank you so much everyone! That is a lot more food for thought than I expected--and a lot to digest. You have raised the most pressing issue for the moment, one which doesn't apply directly to the power situation: they are way out in the provinces and no one will deliver anything in these corona virus times. It's amazing. Even for little things, Shopee, Lazada, Carousell all say can't ship there at the moment. So we're kind of stuck for a while. When things get back up and running, though, there are a lot of good suggestions. I will definitely go quality over price, and was thinking about Honda. I'll just have to check options. Everyone's input is genuinely appreciated.

The price I quoted in my previous post is definitely not a Honda.  I don't recall the make, no doubt Chinese.  I only suggested it as I had assumed, maybe wrongfully, that your family in the province were on a limited budget.  If that is not the case, I can definitely recommend Honda portable generators.  I have used them extensively on Outside Broadcasts for satellite uplinks in remote locations.  They run incredibly quietly and sip fuel at a very low rate.  They would run for 6 hours on the built in tank without top up.  I haven't checked the price here in Philipinnes.
Londoner at heart

Offline Hestecrefter

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2020, 11:24:34 PM »
Hey Crafty Hest,

I call you that because your no dummy, no Ace but definitely a Jack!
Lol...I like your last sentence the best with no sarc.


Thanks MotorS,

That last sentence, did you recognize whence it was plagiarized?   Borrowed from Shakespeare's Twelfth Night:  "If music be the food of love, play on.
Give me excess of it...".  Spoken by Orsino, the Duke of Illyria. 

Offline MotorSarge

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2020, 06:02:33 AM »
Thank you sir, I now know something new which is quite old.
And is it still plagiarism if you change just one letter?
MS

Offline MotorSarge

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2020, 06:12:13 AM »
htr44,

IMO the Honda 2200 Super Quiet is the overall hands down winner in it's class & size for a backup.

!
Thank you so much everyone! That is a lot more food for thought than I expected--and a lot to digest. You have raised the most pressing issue for the moment, one which doesn't apply directly to the power situation: they are way out in the provinces and no one will deliver anything in these corona virus times. It's amazing. Even for little things, Shopee, Lazada, Carousell all say can't ship there at the moment. So we're kind of stuck for a while. When things get back up and running, though, there are a lot of good suggestions. I will definitely go quality over price, and was thinking about Honda. I'll just have to check options. Everyone's input is genuinely appreciated.
MS

Offline MotorSarge

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2020, 06:30:03 AM »
LIS,

Come on now...you can not tell me you never seen someone on one of those pedel-power generator bikes especially in one of those offgrid type areas you mention.

My great ol lady tells me I got the best brand washing machine, dryer, cook, dishwasher & waslis tinting & made in PI.

{mock social justice on}

I don't know MS.  That sounds kinda racist to me.  Your not an Offgridaphobe are you?  Quick someone alert the diversity adjudicator!

{/mock social justice off}

That's the real issue.  I don't see it getting better.  What with all of the turmoil in the world right now.

We can debate the convenience or mtbf of genny's, batteries, inverters, or whatever.  It's all kinda becoming moot. 

The western lifestyles that we all have ordered are no longer part of the catalog offerings.  They were on back order, and now will not be restocked in the foreseeable future.

So, for my family, the questions are .......

1.) I can see insuring for basic lighting / cooling / communications.  But why invest to slow or inhibit a youngster from acclimatizing to the region in which they live in?

2.)  Could that investment be better used?  Invest for the child's future?  Produce non-sullied necessities?  Tool up a revenue generator?  Start a biz?  Improve the hovel?  Fortify defenses? Relocate to better environs?


But hey, who am I to disturb the wa by peeing in the Cheerios?
MS

Offline lost_in_samoa

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2020, 07:54:17 AM »
pedel-power generator bikes

You mean like this?


Offline htr44

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2020, 09:25:10 AM »
htr44,

IMO the Honda 2200 Super Quiet is the overall hands down winner in it's class & size for a backup.

!

That does look like a good choice. At 2200 watts, it seems it will easily do everything except the aircon. But an electric floor fan for the baby is definitely better than the hand fans they're using to cool him off now. Thanks!

Offline lost_in_samoa

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2020, 10:00:38 AM »
But an electric floor fan for the baby is definitely better than the hand fans they're using to cool him off now.

A good halfway point between a hand fan and an aircon would be a Squirrel cage fan, or an attic fan.

In the case of the squirrel cage higher cfm at about the same wattage.  They are kinda noisy though.

For the attic fan it pulls air from lower in the room and evacuates upward and out of a roof vent or the soffit.

If you want to step a little further outside of the envelope, you could build a cooling tower.  If there are decent winds where you are at they work really well.

Windows or apertures up into the prevailing wind flow.  As the wind blows past it creates a vacuum on the window.  That sucks air from inside the room out.  In addition, as the sun heats air in the higher portions that escapes through the vents and pulls lower cooler air in after it.  Convective cooling.

I build the same idea into my domes.  And because of it we have a draft through the domes on the stillest of days.  It does cause a lot of dust to collect in the house though.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 10:10:45 AM by lost_in_samoa »

Offline Peter

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2020, 01:21:51 PM »
If you want to step a little further outside of the envelope, you could build a cooling tower.  If there are decent winds where you are at they work really well.
  >

3,000 years of Egyptian/Persian technology can't be wrong.

Stay safe,

Peter
Noli nothis permittere te terere.
Virtus autem corruptibilis est,
summa virtute prorsus corrumpitur,

Offline Hestecrefter

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2020, 01:53:39 PM »
A good halfway point between a hand fan and an aircon would be a Squirrel cage fan, or an attic fan.

Where we live now, there are plenty of red squirrels to put in those cages.  I could send you a balikbayan box full if you like.  Or I could go to Vancouver and get you some bigger black and grey squirrels.  But the red ones, though smaller, are tough little critters and they have to learn to be smarter than the local cougars and wolves to make it here.  They might serve well for your application.

Offline lost_in_samoa

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2020, 03:23:12 PM »
Where we live now, there are plenty of red squirrels to put in those cages.  I could send you a balikbayan box full if you like.  Or I could go to Vancouver and get you some bigger black and grey squirrels.  But the red ones, though smaller, are tough little critters and they have to learn to be smarter than the local cougars and wolves to make it here.  They might serve well for your application.

For my system the only squirrel that is robust enough hangs out with a moose.  Htr44 may want a bunch.

Be careful though, I hear those things are high in cholesterol.


Offline fred

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Re: Backup power for black/brownouts
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2020, 04:17:23 PM »
We were supposed to have a 5KW solar system installed this year but that`s all on hold now due to this flu ++ thing.
The weak link is power storage but after looking at new upcoming tech,I must say I am very impressed..Specially with these new gravity power storage batteries which in theory should last for many many years.
Interesting to see where this goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5AM75AGvw